Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (12 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. XII (OF 15) ***
Transcriber's note: Stylized "L" is denoted as =L=. Italics are
represented by _underscores_.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ XII
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII:
Charles Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A.
Jones, Jack Revill, James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil
E. Talbert, Charles Oliver Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock,
B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J.
Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy
Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D.
Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patterson, Rio S. Pierce, James A.
Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy Eugene Vaughn, James
C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas law enforcement
officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer
of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County
Jail; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean,
who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Charles Batchelor 1
Jesse E. Curry 25
J. E. (Bill) Decker 42
W. B. Frazier 52
O. A. Jones 58
Jack Revill 73
James Maurice Solomon 87
M. W. Stevenson 91
Cecil E. Talbert 108
Charles Oliver Arnett 128
Buford Lee Beaty 158
Alvin R. Brock 171
B. H. Combest 176
Kenneth Hudson Croy 186
Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw 206
Napoleon J. Daniels 225
William J. Harrison 234
Harold B. Holly, Jr 261
Harry M. Kriss 266
Roy Lee Lowery 271
Frank M. Martin 277
Billy Joe Maxey 285
Logan W. Mayo 291
Louis D. Miller 297
William J. Newman 314
Bobby G. Patterson 334
Rio S. Pierce 337
James A. Putnam 341
Willie B. Slack 347
Don Francis Steele 353
Roy Eugene Vaughn 357
James C. Watson 372
G. E. Worley 378
Woodrow Wiggins 388
Don Ray Archer 395
Barnard S. Clardy 403
Patrick Trevore Dean 415
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Archer Exhibit No.: Page
5091 397
5092 401
5093 401
Arnett Exhibit No.:
5032 131
5033 131
5034 150
5035 154
5036 154
Batchelor Exhibit No.:
5000 5
5001 13
5002 22
Beaty Exhibit No.:
5039 170
5040 163
5641 170
Brock Exhibit No.:
5113 173
5114 176
5115 176
Clardy Exhibit No.:
5061 404
5062 404
5063 404
5064 407
Combest Exhibit No.:
5099 178
5100 180
5101 178
Croy Exhibit No.:
5051 187
5052 188
5053 188
5054 199
Curry Exhibit No.:
5313 40
5314 41
Cutchshaw Exhibit No.:
5042 207
5043 207
5044 207
5045 225
5046 209
Daniels Exhibit No.:
5324 228
5325 232
5326 232
5327 232
Dean Exhibit No.:
5007 423
5008 439
5009 442
5010 441
5011 445
5012 444
5136 446
5136-A 446
5137 447
5138 449
Decker Exhibit No.:
5321 50
5322 50
5323 51
Frazier Exhibit No.:
5086 56
5087 57
Harrison Exhibit No.:
5027 245
5028 245
5029 259
5030 256
5031 259
Holly Exhibit No.:
5109 264
5110 264
5111 265
Jones Exhibit No.:
5054 59
5055 59
5056 59
5057 66
Kriss Exhibit No.:
5106 267
5107 267
5108 268
Lowery Exhibit No.:
5081 272
5082 272
5083 272
5084 274
5085 277
Martin Exhibit No.:
5058 278
5059 278
5060 281
Maxey Exhibit No.:
5094 287
5095 288
5096 288
Mayo Exhibit No.:
5111 293
5112 293
Miller Exhibit No.:
5013 313
5014 313
Newman Exhibit No.:
5037 318
5038 325
5038-A 330
5038-B 330
5038-C 331
5038-D 331
5038-E 334
Patterson Exhibit No.:
5311 335
5312 336
Pierce Exhibit No.:
5077 340
5078 340
5079 340
Putnam Exhibit No.:
5071 342
5072 343
5073 343
Slack Exhibit No.:
5116 352
5117 352
Solomon Exhibit No.:
5106 90
5107 91
Steele Exhibit No.:
5097 356
5098 356
Stevenson Exhibit No.:
5050 98
5051 106
5052 106
5053 107
Talbert Exhibit No.:
5065 122
5066 122
5067 122
5068 122
5069 123
5070 113
Vaughn Exhibit No.:
5334 371
5335 371
5336 371
Watson Exhibit No.:
5102 373
5103 373
5104 374
5105 374
Wiggins Exhibit No.:
5074 393
5075 394
5076 392
Worley Exhibit No.:
5047 379
5048 380
5049 381
5050 388
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR
The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8:30
p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post
Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the
rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the
Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to
take a sworn deposition from you, Chief Batchelor.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature
of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the
security surrounding the protection of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other
pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to
do with the death of President Kennedy.
Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general
request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's
Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled
to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But
the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that any witness may
waive this notice. Do you now waive this notice?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Chief BATCHELOR. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record?
Chief BATCHELOR. Charles Batchelor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your age?
Chief BATCHELOR. Fifty-eight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor?
Chief BATCHELOR. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Chief BATCHELOR. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police
Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Chief BATCHELOR. Since May 1, 1936.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been assistant chief?
Chief BATCHELOR. Since January 20, 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier
this afternoon. In that conversation, we discussed your activities from
the time that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November
22 until Saturday, November 23, when you first heard something about
the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the
Dallas County Jail. I believe you told me that sometime on Saturday
night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to
the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the
night these reporters approached you?
Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been somewhere around 7:30 or 8 o'clock
at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the administrative offices of the police
department at headquarters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the
police and----
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside your own office?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I was out in the outer office of the
administrative offices where the secretaries are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you?
Chief BATCHELOR. There were two of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who they were?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall who they were now. It was a rather
casual request. They asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry
and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner,
and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the
prisoner. And I told them I had no idea when they were going to move
the prisoner.
About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I
think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you
won't miss anything."
So they left with that and went to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other reporters around at that time?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later,
Chief Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in
the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently
doing nothing, just waiting. So he went out and told them that if they
would come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, they were not going to
move the prisoner in the meantime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to
these two newspaper reporters?
Chief BATCHELOR. You mean with reference to the movement of the
prisoner?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they
would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with
questioning him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him
again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we
would move him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that conversation take place?
Chief BATCHELOR. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I
omitted. From the time that he told these reporters that if they were
to come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would
miss anything, he went in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how
he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought
he would be through with him in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean this was between the time he----
Chief BATCHELOR. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the
press.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the
time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general
announcement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the
movement?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed
movement?
Chief BATCHELOR. You mean the mechanics of moving him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you learned about the proposed
movement of Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. I just assumed that we would move him the next morning
sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down
the next morning around 8 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time
Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time
that you went home that night?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any conversation around the building?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else present from the police department
when you talked with the two newspaper reporters?
Chief BATCHELOR. There were some secretaries in the office. This was
not addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were
in the office, in the outer office nearest Chief Curry's office at this
time, and I believe Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday
night or Sunday morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday
morning. It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the
night before when I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed
between the chief's press conference and the time you left?
Chief BATCHELOR. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not
too far off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh
your recollection.
Chief BATCHELOR. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that
when I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night,
but it was around 9:30 when I left Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are
you referring to this report dated November 23d?
Chief BATCHELOR. I think the times in this are fairly accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for
identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This was a report signed by myself, Chief
Lumpkin, and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff résumé
made within a few days after Oswald was shot.
It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and
elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them.
Some of the times, particularly with reference to the President's
arrival, which had to do with meeting with some Secret Service people
and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at
first and we went back and checked some facts.
As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was
reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time
this meeting was, and things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting
at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend?
Chief BATCHELOR. No. The hostess committee of the city which was
hosting the President's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was
kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one
of these meetings with some of the Secret Service people.
So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this
happened that we could relate some other things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at
9:30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to
the press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other
newspaper people about the movement of Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long
after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to
leave themselves. The third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't
anybody up there to speak of and it just died out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his
announcement with respect to Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9:30, stated
in the report? Was that based on your records?
Chief BATCHELOR. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that
night after you left at 9:30?
Chief BATCHELOR. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the
afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that night?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack
Tanner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is
an inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which
inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at
night around the clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice--if you want to refer to your report on page 29,
the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home
about 6:30 in the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what
that call was about?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten
a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an
anonymous call.
Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called
him. That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald
and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send
a squad by Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that
moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. We were concerned
about him in the transfer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of
the police department?
Chief BATCHELOR. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him
to answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him
up. And I told him to send a squad car by and tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have any discussion with him at that point
who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the
responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received
this report that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you
feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action?
Chief BATCHELOR. At that moment?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this
was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the
jail and get him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you received that phone call?
Chief BATCHELOR. I got up and dressed to come down to the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive down at the office?
Chief BATCHELOR. About 8 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to the office?
Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I
parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into
the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the
areaway leading into the garage.
I made the comment that they would have to do something about the
television camera because it was right in the path where they would
bring the prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just
sitting there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of
the basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can
mark with?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. The camera--can I mark here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. The camera was sitting right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera.
Chief BATCHELOR. [Complies.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what television station had this camera there?
Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think it was KRLD?
Chief BATCHELOR. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on
the side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP
camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the camera manned?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people in the basement area at that
time?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera?
Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely
commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later
when we came back down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera?
Chief BATCHELOR. Went up to the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go?
Chief BATCHELOR. Went through the basement and into the elevator and
went up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You went up to the third floor?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your office. Do you remember what conversation you had
with Chief Stevenson along the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that
they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man
that basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we
would move him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea
that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably
move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally
come down and get the prisoner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the
way upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert
earlier in the morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I think I mentioned that to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that conversation?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not anything especially.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the
time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat?
Chief BATCHELOR. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his
bureaus had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common
knowledge that a call like that had been received.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you
recall whether or not there were any people in the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember anybody except those people in
the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long;
yes. Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just
come on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At what time did that morning shift come on?
Chief BATCHELOR. At 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the
time that you believe you saw that camera?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March
23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000."
As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you
see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record
room other than police department employees?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor?
What did you do?
Chief BATCHELOR. I went to my office. I don't remember exactly what I
did. Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this
office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now will you try to remember who else was in the office
with Chief Curry when you walked in?
Chief BATCHELOR. No one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in after you?
Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson came in a little bit later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later, would you say?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else come in after that during this
conversation?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Lunday come in?
Chief BATCHELOR. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the
morning, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Talbert join you?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the
police department?
Chief BATCHELOR. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on
at 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert
called you at your home about 6:30. How did that happen?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon
commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his
detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander.
The information came into them before they came on duty, and someone
had tried to call Chief Curry. When they came down, they told me about
it and I called them and I told them to send a squad by and wake Chief
Curry up and tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What platoon was Talbert in charge of?
Chief BATCHELOR. The second platoon that month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By "platoon," what do you mean?
Chief BATCHELOR. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes
on theoretically at midnight. It actually comes on at 11 o'clock the
preceding day and it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What area does a platoon man?
Chief BATCHELOR. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We
have three substations and they change the same way. The substations
are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a
lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon
commander, who is a captain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this
point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the
city?
Chief BATCHELOR. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something?
Chief BATCHELOR. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in
his office when you first went in?
Chief BATCHELOR. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff
Decker.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Chief BATCHELOR. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that.
And he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker.
This was--I got down around 9 o'clock--I mean around 8 o'clock,
correction--and it must have been somewhere around 8:30 or 8:45 when he
called Decker.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff
Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and
Decker said--and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but
I gathered that Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the
prisoner. Curry said, "Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said,
"I think you've got more manpower than we have. You move him if you
will."
Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and----
Chief BATCHELOR. Curry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone
conversation?
Chief BATCHELOR. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would
think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any
mention of what time Oswald would be moved?
Chief BATCHELOR. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that
Captain Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that
when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought
this would be sometime after 10 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the
telephone with Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the
decision, Curry went back to the office and they were questioning him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this
occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I think he called him back later and told him
how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an
armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined
that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then
we decided to discuss the armored car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this
first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in
moving Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at
that moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to
Fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and
Stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down
Elm Street originally. We would go out of the basement to Commerce,
Commerce to Central Expressway, north on Central to Elm, and then west
on Elm to Houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of
the county jail and come in. This was our original plan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was
Stevenson present in Curry's office?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we
started. He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I
believe Curry and I was the only ones present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the
phone, did he say anything to you?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Chief BATCHELOR. I said we'd better start making some arrangements
then. And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an
armored truck?"
And I said, "I think I know where I can get one."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Chief BATCHELOR. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Chief BATCHELOR. It is on--what is the name of that street?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the downtown area?
Chief BATCHELOR. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of
Ross Avenue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. North or south?
Chief BATCHELOR. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name
of the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it
offhand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of the armored car company again?
Chief BATCHELOR. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth
company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an
office here, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Chief BATCHELOR. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one.
I then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where
I might get ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president
at his home. This was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to
church. It must have been somewhere around 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the name of the vice president?
Chief BATCHELOR. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice
president, and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he
would be glad to furnish us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks
which we could take our choice. One was a small truck, but would
accommodate only one passenger in the back. The other one was what they
call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and
would accommodate several people.
And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or
not." But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but
he would have it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would
find out what the height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the
ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5
inches tall at that point, so I found out what that height was, and I
called him back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you
indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after.
And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to
call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas
representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving
the small one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the truck brought down?
Chief BATCHELOR. It was brought down--probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock,
because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to
11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first
telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe that I told him the route we were
going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where
was Chief Curry, if you know?
Chief BATCHELOR. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my
office. I left his office and went into my office and called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he?
Chief BATCHELOR. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office
with him. We were all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call
with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions,
he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need
to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had
come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that
ramp was down there, what the clearance was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called
Fleming?
Chief BATCHELOR. I think he went down there. He called somebody down
that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the
first time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing
telephone calls?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the
time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming,
would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any
particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the
conversation with Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I
mean, except the few people on the staff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that nobody would have known about the
particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is,
is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew
you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men
in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men?
Chief BATCHELOR. This would have been handled in a telephone
conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason
for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men
called in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the
conversation?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well,
I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the
newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock,
I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across
the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to
happen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they
were down there around 10 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the
ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would
have been recorded in the police department?
Chief BATCHELOR. About the movement of the prisoner?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the
prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time
in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have
said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and
Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody
would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going
to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to
his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives.
He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there.
Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction
he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would
need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this
information, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did
you do? After you finished that telephone conversation?
Chief BATCHELOR. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed
them--it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera
out of there. And we instructed them--Curry went down with us, too, and
there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were
sitting in these places right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take a pen and mark?
Chief BATCHELOR. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit].
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the morning would you estimate that was?
Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere
along in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was
in between the two cars where you marked?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Indicates time.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that
time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car
was over here, and mine was over here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the chief's normal parking place?
Chief BATCHELOR. These all are our normal spaces.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark those in there?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.]
Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there
or not. I don't remember his.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put the time in between those two also?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks time.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are
talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time
that was on the other cars?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were there all morning. They were parked there
and they stayed there up until we moved them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on chart.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other cars in the basement area?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly.
It wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked
over here somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the
garage?
Chief BATCHELOR. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning,
that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. It
is one of the quietest times. There were two or three other cars parked
in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement at that time, were
there news people in the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time,
there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in.
They weren't operative.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with,
was it Stevenson?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At 9:15 or 9:30. What is your best estimate of the number
of news people that were down there?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we
finally went down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded?
Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't crowded; no. There wasn't any big
congregation. There may be two or three people from--some television
people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some
cables and stuff in there, and the best I remember, we told them they
were going to have to move those cables out of there. And we instructed
Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the
entrance into the garage area?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this
for the news media to stand behind the rail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we instructed the television people that they
would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself?
Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember
exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or
myself, but I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed
that this needed to be done, and one of us told them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do
besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance
be moved, and that the camera be moved back there?
Chief BATCHELOR. We went over in here, and there were some detectives
around in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on
the map?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were along in here. There was a man over here by
this elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is----
Chief BATCHELOR. City hall elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way
in the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man
at the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a
uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve
that was over there, but I didn't pay any attention.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The uniformed man was a reserve officer?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you later learn that from?
Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the investigation later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed
reserve officer was, what did you do next?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at
this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there
wasn't too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent
some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down
the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the
meantime I had contacted Mr. Fleming about the armored motor car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You came down three times?
Chief BATCHELOR. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and
looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say
you saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his
name was?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember it. It is in the report.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve
officer was standing and the approximate time?
Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was standing over here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a
circle. This is again somewhere around 9:15 or 9:30?
Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere along there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports
that were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was
where. You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it,
and he is on one of those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been stationed there by somebody?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I
saw him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I
could be mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we
came down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the
alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was.
Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking
about when I may have seen him there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first
trip, where did you go?
Chief BATCHELOR. We went back upstairs to the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news
media personnel on the third floor?
Chief BATCHELOR. There were some up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded
condition.
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there television cameras still there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there
TV cameras up there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; the best I remember, they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at
that time?
Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I could
be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember KRLD?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were the first ones in there and they had their
truck parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because
WFAA had a truck parked on the Harwood Street side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they
were shooting footage?
Chief BATCHELOR. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they
had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see
through them and see what was going on through them, look through the
camera. Whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to
shoot that morning. It was pretty quiet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after
your first trip downstairs, where did you go?
Chief BATCHELOR. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in
touch with Mr. Stevenson and tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fleming?
Chief BATCHELOR. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that
thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down
there and you can take the one you want.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone
in your office or Decker's office or anybody else prior to your first
phone call to him?
Chief BATCHELOR. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his
first knowledge of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else
this conversation involved?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing
our appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the
trucks down. I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring
them east on Harwood--I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back
it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right
direction when they pulled out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with
Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would
take Oswald to the county jail?
Chief BATCHELOR. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably
Chief Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to
take was worked out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than
it was with me. My primary job here was to get the truck and get the
cars placed, and it was decided that Chief Curry would lead the car
down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car,
and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by
Stevenson and I in a rear car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This planned route of the movement was to go from Commerce
to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down Elm Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. To Houston; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or
officers called in from the field?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who?
Chief BATCHELOR. Talbert called his officers in. He had called and
scattered them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it
down Main Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information,
but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to
Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was the route changed?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my
knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile
instead of the armored car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who participated in that decision?
Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I
believe--I was not in there when it was discussed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you
do?
Chief BATCHELOR. Then he said he would send them over, and we went
down there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably
10:45, 10:30 to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well
covered. We had a man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had
several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before
you get to the jail office, and I went through there, and Stevenson was
with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here, Chief. I think I will pull out
another map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for
the purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March
23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit,
Chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which
you indicated would be what time?
Chief BATCHELOR. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw
a number of officers across this area right here. There were several
detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark that with "X's"?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. We
noticed these cameras had been moved out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office?
Chief BATCHELOR. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the
jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail
office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to
the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news
people?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; photographers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize any of them?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them
out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no
one in that jail office except officers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the supervisor?
Chief BATCHELOR. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we
instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at
that time, by no means all of them, that--later there were, but there
was a good many--we told them they would have to stand back over here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is against the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras
behind this railing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set
up?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there.
These were the two sitting out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been
originally near the record room?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see them near the record room? When you came
in in the morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. No. That trip down after we came down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two
TV cameras that you saw on the first trip?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you said that that time was 9:15?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now they had been moved here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here.
That was dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main
Street ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That camera that you are marking there in the garage?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not operating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean that the----
Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't hooked up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the
railing, were they taking shots when you walked down?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They
didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to
keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at
about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where
you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the
lights?
Chief BATCHELOR. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters
down here, just kind of announced to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. Some of them--one of the supervisors came in and
said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it
would be all right to put them along here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. Main Street entrance ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the railing and jail office?
Chief BATCHELOR. And the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell them?
Chief BATCHELOR. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them
if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some
officers that were stationed along there to hold them back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But your original hope was that all of the news media
people could be in the entrance to the garage?
Chief BATCHELOR. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered
along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of
them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well,
I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this
thing over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to indicate in words.
Chief BATCHELOR. We looked over the basement to see that the security
was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp.
We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people
across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that
they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on
the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers.
And the only people over here were either reservists or regular
officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me
they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance.
Was keeping that crowd back there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side
of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl--from the
Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway--in other words, in the
direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police
officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side
of Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't
extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across
from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't
that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were,
oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at
the corner of Pearl and Commerce?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or
not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about
this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do?
Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and walked back in there. They had
parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the
street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already
there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of
the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind
his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would
lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and
where your car was placed on Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. This confuses me a little here. There is not any
offset.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you
represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street.
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on map.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce
Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these
armored cars arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down
there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again
out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I
looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this
one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for
the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him.
And this one--Mr. Hall, I believe is his name--I think it is Mr. Hall
that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall
to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear
this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he
started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with
all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He
stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it
because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he
might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since
it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would
rather it go from that point.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the point this conversation took place, had you or
anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and
pointed out the car that he would follow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would
be before Oswald would be brought down?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I
thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side
of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about
12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there
was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the
west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two
officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked
that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and
searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took
out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out.
There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a
gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked
Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the
event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of
the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items
out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck
open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of
the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of
the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30.
It was just a matter of minutes before--and told me of the change
of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down
through Elm Street, and that the car carrying----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean Main Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald
and a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main
Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the
truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would
follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would
go down Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What security was there going to be?
Chief BATCHELOR. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main
Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying
detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was
somebody sent out?
Chief BATCHELOR. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had
it done. I don't recall who did that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an
officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl
Expressway?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know whether there was or not.
(Short recess had.)
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had
a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and
Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the
policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for
the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will
let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to
be stationed, and where they were moved to.
Chief BATCHELOR. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and
later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking
you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the
armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the
corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?
Chief BATCHELOR. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that
any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no
traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl
Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have
been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point,
trafficwise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the
route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would
turn off Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. On Central Expressway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it
next turn?
Chief BATCHELOR. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner
and a car of detectives would turn off at Main.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this
decoy?
Chief BATCHELOR. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they
decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with
Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner
in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this,
and they thought this would be a wise move.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to
be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't
you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that,
but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they
would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car?
Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with
moving the prisoner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief.
Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it
was wise or not. It is a moot question now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief
Stevenson about this change in plan?
Chief BATCHELOR. This happened when he told me about it, just moments
before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were
bringing a car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry
the prisoner and one to carry the detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came
down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you
went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip
downstairs?
Chief BATCHELOR. And my last one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came
down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the
elevators?
Chief BATCHELOR. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been about what time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to
in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by
the----
Chief BATCHELOR. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last
trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car
and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the
prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20?
Chief BATCHELOR. About 10:45.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you
moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you
searched the armored car?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time
that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald
arrived?
Chief BATCHELOR. Possibly 30 minutes or 35.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you finished examining the armored car and
you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the
placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly before he came down, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows
deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who
were blocking the Main Street ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. How many rows deep were the policemen?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean?
Chief BATCHELOR. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep
along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but
most about two deep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp
about how deep these people were?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because
there were cameras there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were in that area there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that
particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in
there, maybe 30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the
rest of the news people placed?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were along here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is blocking the garage entrance?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people would you say were in that area?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee,
we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must
have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They
were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or
three deep across there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark in there where you have indicated?
Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks chart.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to
the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they
about the same?
Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they
were. There was more than one line of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there police officers in there also?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along
here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up
to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they
should be facing?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened?
Chief BATCHELOR. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant
Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these
people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars
were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down,
were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be
the north half of the garage, do you recall?
Chief BATCHELOR. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked
back in here, police vehicles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't
have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any
police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from
this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail
door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there were any people other than the
people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because
these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This
curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It
would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away
from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod
at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you
watch it go up the ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as it went up the ramp?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned
with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this
thing started.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line
of newsmen?
Chief BATCHELOR. I saw it. I wasn't----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you paying any attention?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of
newsmen, what do you remember next happening?
Chief BATCHELOR. I remember backing these or pulling up these two
detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up
here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one
could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten
in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes."
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, are you sure--how certain are you that
these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out
with those two detective cars where they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sounds pretty good to me.
Chief BATCHELOR. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled
around here, because they were blocking this entrance here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I
don't know which ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they listed in this report, do you recall?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am
pretty sure they are not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Detective Brown?
Chief BATCHELOR. Where do you see that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the
driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown,
driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was
preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember
Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment
they did that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting
in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether
they----
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down
for that express purpose, after this plan was changed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing as the rear car--that is, the car
closest to the exit from the jail office----
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing over in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing
at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing
over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in,
because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and
we were talking right up in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you
place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were
standing?
Chief BATCHELOR. One car was right here, approximately, and the other
car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion,
but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know
in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which
was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right
along here. But these cars were larger than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it
up where it was?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing here, and this one was back here more
in this position.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put your name where you have made the circle?
Chief BATCHELOR. (Marks on chart.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember what other officers or people were
around you?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of
people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you
do?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was
standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I
started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on
it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I
heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when
he was shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and looked back and came over there.
There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby down?
Chief BATCHELOR. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail
office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him.
I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on
the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the
ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at
that point?
Chief BATCHELOR. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was
going on. There was such a crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But
I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was
before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the
shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then?
Chief BATCHELOR. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained
in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an
ambulance, and he said they had.
I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was
giving him some pressure on his lower rib section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Ruby at that time?
Chief BATCHELOR. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well.
There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail
office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were
trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he
was fighting them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall anything he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the officers say anything to him?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost
immediately. It was just--I walked out of there before the ambulance
came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and
there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody
out."
There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were
frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried
to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer
at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down."
They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped
through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the
corridor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to
Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the
hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau,
and then to Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they escape out Commerce Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know where they went from there, whether they
went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there
would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let
them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What percentage of people would you say got out of the
basement? News media people got out of the basement that way?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a
lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out
that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken
upstairs in the elevator?
Chief BATCHELOR. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you?
Chief BATCHELOR. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him,
I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that
it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went
upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up
there, somebody called him and he knew what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do next?
Chief BATCHELOR. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there
kind of dumbfounded for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you
talked with Ruby?
Chief BATCHELOR. I never did talk with Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in
about how Ruby got down into the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of
rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he
had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly
close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do
in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that
basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know that I did anything specifically to
try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall
investigation into the matter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather
together any of the top officers to discuss this?
Chief BATCHELOR. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I
don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--I am
sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there
were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the
investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby
himself.
We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had
borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we
ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this--the most
probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending
the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and
having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people.
We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with
the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in
that area.
We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found
anything to date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to
that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after
Oswald was shot did this occur?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next
day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special
service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men
on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this,
which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned
down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down
there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we
discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing
out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on
the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk
to Dean?
Chief BATCHELOR. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember
whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon,
sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to
Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told
him he came down that ramp.
He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped
and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to
them, he walked down there.
There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers
that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears
evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet
from the entrance is when he got in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he
had spoken to a newspaper reporter also?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean
was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the
name of Newman that day?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that
day?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; over on top of the ramp?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Chief BATCHELOR. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with
Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He
voluntarily told me this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this conversation occurred?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't
remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex.,
Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002."
Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief?
Chief BATCHELOR. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which
has the names of all the members of the police department in it and
their assignments for the month of November 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were
employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. It would be, with the exception of any few that might
have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the
month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs
frequently. But for the most part it is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or, also a few that had been hired?
Chief BATCHELOR. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They
are not on there; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last
day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that
in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in
the protection of the President?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how,
as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more
effectively protected?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One
of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a
short time to do some of the planning that we had.
We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love
Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed.
We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route
would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel
and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should
be.
I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general
procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the
President could put out to police departments such as certain standard
types of coverage that would always apply.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any example from your own experience where
this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip?
Chief BATCHELOR. One thing you need in a situation like this is
explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching
the crowd rather than the President.
This is a general accepted thing in most police departments.
Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be
told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to
guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed
the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel
on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized
personnel" was.
And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President
had never reached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm
Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have
gone under momentarily had he not been shot.
There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and
we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized
personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined
along there watching for the parade which never did go under them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many persons do you remember having been up there?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there
were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should
be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But
there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted
procedures that, and certain general types of security that every
police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating
procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances
might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with
it published, that might be helpful to police organizations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go off the record here a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go on the record on this.
We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which
Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out
is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential
route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily
handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at
particular intersections.
Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what
you have just told me?
Chief BATCHELOR. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too,
on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they
don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I
am not criticizing.
(Further discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do
you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the
middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various
buildings in a periphery of their vision.
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the
middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were
primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows.
When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at
the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more
than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block,
but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were
to watch the people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as
to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows?
Chief BATCHELOR. We had experienced detectives down there in the
immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists,
too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that
when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are
not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd.
Whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a
President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is
the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of
people frequently, this is probably routine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm
and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be
watching the crowds?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below
Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along
that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the
business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the
street there, actually.
The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to
the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass.
It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building
and there wasn't anybody placed down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed
either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection?
Chief BATCHELOR. There was a police car that preceded the two of them,
as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a
quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection.
Chief BATCHELOR. No; there wasn't one, that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, I think that is it.
TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED
The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12:30
p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post
Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before
Burt Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's
Commission, now on March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that
deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical
errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. You advise me now that
you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two
statements, one on page 199, and one on page 219, that you wish to
clarify, or change; is that correct?
Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a
continuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be
entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition?
Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you
were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin?
Chief BATCHELOR. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment,
or change the following: On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows:
"Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with
moving the prisoner."
Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read?
Chief BATCHELOR. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished
to say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the
prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14
read as follows, to wit:
"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems
that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do
some of planning that we did'".
Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall the exact language I used in the
statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read:
"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such
a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do."
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, Chief, have you found that the
transcription of your deposition is correct?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the
corrections have been typed out I think you will be in a position to
sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it
approving all except such as has been corrected this morning?
Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it
were, which is this morning's deposition?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY
The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April
15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas
Police Department.
Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under
the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and
the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in
conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have
been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the
security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth.
Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an
informal request----
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is
my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission,
every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day
written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also
provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a
witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now
if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive
the 3-day notice?
Mr. CURRY. I am.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be
sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CURRY. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?
Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir?
Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position?
Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department
altogether?
Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936.
Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin?
Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I
worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a
traffic officer for several months.
Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began?
Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical
High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry
a short time after that, after graduating from high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school
and joining the police force?
Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall,
and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning
and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children?
Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one
son of my own and one daughter of my own.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of
Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old.
Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at
the bottom of the ranks in the police department?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way
through, as it were?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Up the line?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the
police department has, and through civil service examinations was able
to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police,
captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the
highest civil service rank obtainable.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as
inspector--I don't recall exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system
involve special studies?
Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to
compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through
examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern
University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I
graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in
Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school.
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions
you have attended.
Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas
area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of
public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by
Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area
through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses
from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the
extent of my training.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir?
Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training.
It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in
the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We
volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground
training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew
out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU
in Fort Worth where I continued my studies at TCU and flew out of
Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were
not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there
for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training.
We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for
release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of
an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent
to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments.
At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he
thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and
I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was
discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft
board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went back to your duties?
Mr. CURRY. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned
as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months;
I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to
lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of
the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school.
I attended the FBI school then.
Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for
promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1
position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the
police training school.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the laws of Texas?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue
testifying--to tell us the various stages.
Mr. CURRY. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge
of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then
appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is
actually the second in command of the police department--that was in
October of 1953.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a non-civil-service position?
Mr. CURRY. That's an appointive job.
Mr. HUBERT. Who appointed you to that job?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of
the city manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the chief at that time?
Mr. CURRY. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.
Mr. CURRY. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and
at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting
chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the
rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police.
Mr. HUBERT. He resigned voluntarily?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it because of old age?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go
as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in
Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned
from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police
Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is
in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were second in command at the time you were
appointed chief of police?
Mr. CURRY. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had been actually for some time?
Mr. CURRY. About 7 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you?
Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed.
He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall--I
don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed
assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and
the chief of police, are non-civil service?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of
a reduction?
Mr. CURRY. In a reduction?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you
were when appointed.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a
number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of
the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments?
Mr. CURRY. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief
and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments.
Mr. HUBERT. You made those appointments?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some
of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed
Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is
in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the
rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left
them there.
Mr. HUBERT. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you
chose to leave them there?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by
virtue of civil service?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when
the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume,
became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was
that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police
Department offices?
Mr. CURRY. So I understand; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that
point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative
fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait
until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what
we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the
Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and
Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and
we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas,
and which is near Stemmons Expressway--it was necessary for us to move
to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the
President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to
have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time,
and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from,
whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more
reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw
some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably
something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this
time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up
beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said,
"Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so."
So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the
nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland
Hospital and they were--the President, the Vice President and the
Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital
for--oh--some hour or so.
At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so,
and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot,
and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the
hospital.
At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in
Oak Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by
some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car
ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed
that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two
automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of
the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that
in any way with the President's assassination?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go on.
Mr. CURRY. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of
his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and
got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas
Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to
get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but
to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and
the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the
Presidential plane.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital
to go to Love Field?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the
time you arrived there?
Mr. CURRY. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital--30
minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that
would have been around a little after 1:15, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love
Field?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him?
Mr. CURRY. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen
him but I didn't recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen
him?
Mr. CURRY. I have seen him in the courtroom.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that
you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital?
Mr. CURRY. If he was, I didn't know it.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what I'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now
know to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper
who is called Seth Kantor?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he used to be in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington.
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him out there?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall who all I saw out there--I saw a number of
people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could
have seen him out there.
Mr. HUBERT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that
you did not see Kantor with Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that
is to say--the arrival at Love Field.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and
his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane.
I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was
coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office,
and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and
into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him
the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office,
as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And I left
the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and returned to my car and in the
meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came
and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane.
After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell
and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the
city hall.
Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got
to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and
when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just
pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen
just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television
cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and
I went to my office and talked with some of my staff--I don't recall
who all was in there at the time--about what was going on, and I was
told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named
Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and
they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your
knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the
assassination of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at that same time?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got back there?
Mr. CURRY. After I returned from Love Field.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the
interrogation?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders,
robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind.
Mr. HUBERT. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald
with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was
in accordance with the normal procedures of the department?
Mr. CURRY. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir?
Mr. CURRY. A number of years--I don't recall exactly when he was
appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably 15 years
anyway.
I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't
recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a
representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was
interviewed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you agree to that?
Mr. CURRY. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this
request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in."
At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret
Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went
in--one or two FBI representatives.
It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any message around that time or a little
later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about
Oswald's security?
Mr. CURRY. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and
telling me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--I think the last statement you made
was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office
yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you
want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the
time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in
to see Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him
or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the
administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from
various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred
with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the
progress of the investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you kept informed?
Mr. CURRY. Usually through Chief Stevenson.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz'
office----
Mr. CURRY. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred.
Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that
he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer.
Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I
think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he
had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some
witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who
shot Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw
him?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I
believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. When I did see him
I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual,
and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was
being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was
pretty cool.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't question him yourself, did you?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Somewhere around in there--I don't know exactly when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe
it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the
possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the
President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz,
principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against
him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that
morning he had carried a package into the Building.
Mr. HUBERT. This information was being relayed to you?
Mr. CURRY. Relayed to me by Fritz--just summing up what they found out
about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had
been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters
had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and
that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building
and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room
and started to approach him or question him and they were told by
Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their
employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on
upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from.
In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away
from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening,
he immediately went to the location to take over all security and
searching there.
Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me
and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several
minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have
gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the Building.
As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building
and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and
found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they
suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President,
and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects
together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was
told to me by people of the homicide bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when
he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the
information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as
the assassin of President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were aware of that too--you were still in the
Building?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a
showup or a lineup--I don't know that that is accurate, but it took
place in the assembly room.
Mr. CURRY. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the
evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think
he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses
to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they
were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing
else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked
me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see Oswald, how
does he look, can we see him?
At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and
Alexander was up there.
Mr. HUBERT. He is the assistant district attorney?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see
him or could we see him?
Mr. HUBERT. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen?
Mr. CURRY. By the newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. In the presence of Wade and Alexander?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see
anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know
of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they
would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the assembly room located on another floor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. And the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as I
recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners,
so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out.
And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the room we are talking about?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the
stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze?
Mr. CURRY. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But this was not an identification lineup?
Mr. CURRY. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they
wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe
him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the
interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go
about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would
bring him through.
Mr. HUBERT. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to
the elevator?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It's the inside elevator----
Mr. CURRY. The prisoners' elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. That leads all of the police department down into the
basement into the jail?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or
anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and
let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present then?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall--I think Fritz was--I don't know that he was
in the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the
suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity--they were
not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media
started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few
seconds and we removed him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room
that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack
Ruby in that room?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't
see him, and would not have known him had I seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize him?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know
as Jack Ruby with being in that room?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose
of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of
the President?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I
mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with
the murder of the President--he was charged in the lobby of the
identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police
department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification
bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were
observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved
through these crowds of people?
Mr. CURRY. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the
back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives,
two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the
third floor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in
the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; there were several--a good many there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when
he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not
exposed in any way?
Mr. CURRY. No; he was not.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police
then?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times
he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and
there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at--what security measures were taken,
if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the
people in the assembly room?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that
there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was
screening people who came up on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how would they screen them?
Mr. CURRY. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they
would check them, apparently asking for identification.
Mr. HUBERT. The elevator would be the only way to get up there?
Mr. CURRY. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers
were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have
seen them too.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could
also check the staircase?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to
those officers?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking
the people who came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those
officers for the purpose of checking there?
Mr. CURRY. Usually the captain on duty in that building--that would
have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone
else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders
to get someone else.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you have in the department any standard
operative procedures to cover a situation like that?
Mr. CURRY. Not exactly this type incident.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security
check going on?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that
was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down?
Mr. CURRY. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they
went into the assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald
there?
Mr. CURRY. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen--and I told the
newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room
and not approach the prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give
any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that
period we are talking about?
Mr. CURRY. No, not this period--no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system of checking for identification was
being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and
staircase?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking
the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether
they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on
the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great
many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants,
various people that would come to the other bureaus.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally, there would be no police checking those two
elevators?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the
main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the
way?
Mr. CURRY. That's right--that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate
business there?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think we can just continue on then.
Mr. CURRY. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my
office--I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe,
Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that would be Friday night.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came
down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding
incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine
investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide
division section on the murder of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the security measures you have described still in
force?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed.
Mr. HUBERT. It was neither more nor less?
Mr. CURRY. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the
day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress
of the investigation. Late that evening, the different members of
the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer
Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know,
that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because
he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually
he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the
prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been,
what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State
prison?
Mr. CURRY. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau
transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the
sheriff's office sends up and gets them.
Mr. HUBERT. And either type is usual?
Mr. CURRY. Either one is acceptable.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in
effect, was his prisoner?
Mr. CURRY. Not at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were
asked, I think, by the newsmen?
Mr. CURRY. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't
know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on from there.
Mr. CURRY. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him
tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz
about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't
think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact
you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble,
they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so
forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal
procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer
his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time
do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly
and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe
so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the
news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some
of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer
him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were
going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made
the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will
be back in time to observe anything you care to observe."
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had
been made for the transfer?
Mr. CURRY. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you went home?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's pick up with the 24th.
Mr. CURRY. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I
recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as
I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to
our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the
hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately
in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and
Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him--I told Lieutenant Wiggins,
I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and
then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and
want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating
the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There
were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I
told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and
wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back
over in this area.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had
determined that the way to move him was through the basement area?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. I believe about this--Chief Stevenson and Chief
Batchelor approached me--I think they had been there earlier, and I
told them I thought the best thing to do was to set up our security
down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the
county jail.
I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I
think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down
there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of
Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the
captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting
in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer
over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this
basement." It was being taken care of, I could see.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that
satisfied you that it was being taken care of?
Mr. CURRY. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in
the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the
vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief
Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in
the basement and screen everything that came back in.
Mr. HUBERT. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give
any specific instructions?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't
Mr. HUBERT. Or does that term have any significance in police work?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who
had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, within the organization of the police
department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were
satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to
be there?
Mr. CURRY. Any unauthorized people.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one more point on that--under the system, who would be
considered as unauthorized persons?
Mr. CURRY. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters
or police officers would be allowed in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Only the news media?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Television people--would be included, too?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's go ahead.
Mr. CURRY. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went
to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were
several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were
Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz
was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few
moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain
Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no;
they were still talking to him," so I left the room.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when
they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The
arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought
to----
Mr. HUBERT. What arrangements had been made?
Mr. CURRY. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time
we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time,
I believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and
drive him down there.
Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made
against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I
called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said
they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11
o'clock--probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him
on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him."
Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to
me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the
ones that were investigating the case and we had the officers set up
downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker--I said, "Okay, we'll bring
him to you."
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at first your security precaution in the
basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to
move him from the jail or Decker coming after him?
Mr. CURRY. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief
Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats
that we had had.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the
threats and after you had talked to Decker?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little
after 11 o'clock?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it was probably before that.
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems
to me it must have been earlier than that.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there
after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief
Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this
security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down
there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away
from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car.
So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that
runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be
furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two
sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both
over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever
one we wanted.
Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald
continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a
quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were
there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all
the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was
parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the
meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned
out of any unauthorized persons.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit
was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald
to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit?
Mr. CURRY. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic
comes in on Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Main Street is two-way traffic?
Mr. CURRY. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the
vehicles were placed there.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that
you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and
that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route
would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street
and go down?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks
closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the
second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer
route instead of the shorter route was taken?
Mr. CURRY. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules
and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was
the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set
up that way.
Mr. HUBERT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through
the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down
to the county jail?
Mr. CURRY. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz
about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly
pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?
Mr. CURRY. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like
we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too
awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner
be transferred in a regular police car with detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. Was a policeman to drive the armored car?
Mr. CURRY. No; not the armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a factor, too--I suppose--it wouldn't be a member
of the police force under your control driving that car?
Mr. CURRY. No; but he felt like--Fritz said if anyone tried to take
our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the
caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our
prisoner.
So, I didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan,
so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car
as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if
anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be
attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner
in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to
the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail,
and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan
got there.
Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as
I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11
o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was
en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor
Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case,
how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to
him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and
he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been
shot in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the
hospital in the ambulance?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had
been shot and an ambulance had been ordered.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is,
the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was
told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I
think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was
still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for
word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30,
we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been
informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack
Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail.
After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to
news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in
custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that
day.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to
your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through
the Main Street ramp?
Mr. CURRY. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just
heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I
understood that he told some more people that up in the jail.
After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try
to find out what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And who was that?
Mr. CURRY. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to them?
Mr. CURRY. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this
and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why
and how it occurred.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to
find out exactly the truth?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; absolutely.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And I take it, of course, that you studied it?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings
as to how Ruby entered and so forth?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main
Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. From your study of the report and all the statements that
you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report?
Mr. CURRY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the
officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe
that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the
proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his
assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and
while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for
the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up.
It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that
permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city
hall.
Mr. HUBERT. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY. Vaughn--Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main
Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or
suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer
of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; they left it up to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a
desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the
route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall
your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of
pleasing the press entered into any of these plans?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the
police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the
proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been--the like
of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century.
I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be
done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to
observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that
had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed
to see a prisoner.
There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office
to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged
actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such
remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want
them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on
this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled
as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had
more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than
some of the other cases we have handled.
But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and
to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been
done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press
present.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it
not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald,
and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal
procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see
him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And allowed them to take pictures?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be
best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and
use another route in making the transfer at another time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed
this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the
city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping
him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this
and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this
transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many
of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his
responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he
wanted to transfer this prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to
transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the
press?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been
satisfactory to you?
Mr. CURRY. I would not have complained about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior
to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by
considerations of the press?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this--that he
didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz
wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the
daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him
any trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to
move him at night was dictated by considerations of security?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity
to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you
consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown?
Mr. CURRY. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that
Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I
believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as
they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the
ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had
been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police
officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped
away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment,
our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered
the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some
detectives and news media.
Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp
where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means
of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more?
Mr. CURRY. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our
security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on
Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually
very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there
that he had to guard.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was standing right in the middle of it?
Mr. CURRY. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could
have gotten in.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had
to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his
assignment?
Mr. CURRY. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently
was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was
10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just
stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by.
Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he
knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of
the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you
two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for
identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an
interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the
document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page
"Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition of Chief J. E.
Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am
placing my initials.
With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an
interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963,
and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas,
Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry,"
and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the
document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of
the second page.
Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where
my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the
record will show we both are talking about the same document?
Mr. CURRY. Okay.
(Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
Mr. HUBERT. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to
make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I will.
(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of
those documents?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I looked them over.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the
interviews that they purport to cover?
Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or
changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would
like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into
the record what is correct and not what is not correct.
Mr. CURRY. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or
deletions?
Mr. CURRY. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know--as far as I
can recall, this is about what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the
Commission's staff prior to this time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my
office.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation
that has not been covered here?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to
make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty
to say anything you want to say.
Mr. CURRY. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply
regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything
that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the
security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a
responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for
Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial.
According to the information that was given to me by the homicide
bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been
able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of
law.
Jack Ruby--I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a
great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what
I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew
him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted
police business with him at his place of business. There were a few,
perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social
activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority
of the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two
things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor,
of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of
it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald.
Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your
observations about it?
Mr. CURRY. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go
into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that
might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with
letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to
shoot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything?
Mr. CURRY. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find.
Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for such?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; we certainly were.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence?
Mr. CURRY. Proper action would have been taken.
Mr. HUBERT. And by that you mean what?
Mr. CURRY. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he
would have been filed on by us.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police
did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay
much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did,
and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the
reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your
investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence
which might throw light on that matter?
Mr. CURRY. This investigation which was conducted was a completely
impartial investigation.
We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if
there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if
actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records
through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was
indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for
improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the
offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a
reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the
department has not been questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has
been no effort to cover up?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had
come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby
came through one man?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, chief?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe not.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself
personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being
frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record
in this matter.
Mr. CURRY. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that
I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is
that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I
don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have
this thing occur.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions
and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an
answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much,
chief.
Mr. CURRY. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF J. E. (BILL) DECKER
The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10:44 a.m.,
on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker.
Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the
joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted
by the Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint
resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from
you, Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general nature of the
inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to
report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy
and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald
and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry,
including the security of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which
he was killed.
I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of
a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I think that's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's
Commission?
Mr. DECKER. I know there was a letter--anyway, I am here due to that
reason.
Mr. HUBERT. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this,
that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made
to appear here?
Mr. DECKER. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here
and I presume that was a summons.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through
the formalities here?
Mr. DECKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the
rules and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a
3-day written notice before appearing.
Mr. DECKER. I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive
that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it
and testify now?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?
Mr. DECKER. Bill Decker.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mr. DECKER. Sir, 66.
Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?
Mr. DECKER. 6302 Palo Pinto.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. DECKER. I am sheriff of Dallas County.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sheriff?
Mr. DECKER. Since January 1, 1949.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have been reelected a number of times?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times?
Mr. DECKER. I am serving my 16 years--I had two of those--one of those
terms for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that--that
makes 4 from 16, leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my
fifth now.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became
sheriff?
Mr. DECKER. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior
to that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior
to that I was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I
was elevator operator in the courthouse. Now, that's it--that's my life.
Mr. HUBERT. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You are married, of course?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?
Mr. DECKER. I have one adopted son.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I--as I understand it, it is your responsibility to
operate the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either
serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in
Dallas County and do not make bond, is that correct, sir?
Mr. DECKER. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security
building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. That is located where?
Mr. DECKER. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it
extends to the corner of Elm and Houston in the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take
them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed,
in cell blocks or something of that sort?
Mr. DECKER. Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750
prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have what might be called maximum security there?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450
maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others
are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel
isn't so good in that old jail.
Mr. HUBERT. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security
from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out?
Mr. DECKER. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern
locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors
to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him
unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to
say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me.
They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their
jobs and I lost five prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. Does maximum security as it operates with you include
considerations of security to the prisoner himself?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider it to be your function, not merely to
secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted,
but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will
not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders?
Mr. DECKER. Well, I even go further than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you tell us about that?
Mr. DECKER. A prisoner that is delivered to me--when the crime is
committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me,
from then on I am his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing,
get his medication and all the necessities of life required. I must
protect him from a violent prisoner and I also must protect him from a
citizen who would desire to do harm to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I
mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to
accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security?
Mr. DECKER. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that
is given to them, one; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection
on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the
prisoner is protected.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; I had some officers present when he was arrested.
Mr. HUBERT. From the sheriff's office--sheriff's officers were present?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; sheriff's officers were present in Oak Cliff at the
time. They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the
same as others. You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the
President.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. DECKER. When my officers were dispatched there, I also told some
other agencies to send their men over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are
captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no
warrant of arrest?
Mr. DECKER. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are
arrested within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in
turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main
and Harwood, or better still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and
there confined until their period of investigation is completed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long is that?
Mr. DECKER. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't--there would be no
way to answer that--how long does it take to make some investigation?
Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule,
regulation, or law?
Mr. DECKER. No; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36
hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which
most municipalities work is--they have a right to arrest and hold for
investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed.
That leaves it pretty blank.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally
charged and that there has been a capias or warrant----
Mr. DECKER. It's a warrant in this case.
Mr. HUBERT. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular
prisoner?
Mr. DECKER. I or one of the constables.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your custom--are there any rules or regulations or
laws?
Mr. DECKER. No; there's no rules or regulations--only this--when a
warrant is issued--when a complaint is filed with my district attorney
or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant
is issued and delivered to the agency. If it is a felony and in the
justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are
speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David Johnston,
justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to
the city police.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to
Tippit, are you, or the death of the President, or both?
Mr. DECKER. Well, I rather think it was both.
Mr. HUBERT. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all?
Mr. DECKER. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the custom, too?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are
dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one
case, as to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of
November, as to the death of the President, what would be the normal
situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the
keeper of these prisoners?
Mr. DECKER. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had
come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted--I
imagine we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide
and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and
discussed with him if he was ready for transfer--if he was going to
transfer or did he want us to transfer. That would have been the normal
procedure with us.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the
prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both?
Mr. DECKER. No; it is normal but it is not too much--they transfer
maybe one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise
as this prisoner was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have
attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a
situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them?
Mr. DECKER. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose
and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of
Oswald?
Mr. DECKER. I can't tell you that as to when--the homicide occurred
and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a
Friday--I'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much
and on Friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office--you
know--this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my
office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there
at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate--I was working there
and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with me, and also Heitman
of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as
we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him
directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to
writing. Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived.
We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had
located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene
searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived
and then I talked to Fritz and then we went across the street and he
phoned and that's when I learned Oswald had been formerly employed
there at that building.
And, Fritz went to the city--now, here's something I'm uncertain
about--whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about
this removal, I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and
so much press in our hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him
and advise with that I wished to be notified when he started to move
this boy, so that I would have my security in shape to receive him when
he arrived there.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. DECKER. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than
that--no.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell
whether it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday?
Mr. DECKER. No; it wasn't Sunday. I remember there were different
conversations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and
different conversations on Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these
various conversations, if you remember them--who they were with and
about what time?
Mr. DECKER. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm
correct--now, the date of the homicide of Oswald was what?
Mr. HUBERT. It was Sunday the 24th.
Mr. DECKER. The 24th--Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our
investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then
closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on
Saturday arrival at our office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that
was the day, we talked about moving Oswald but I just don't remember.
That's one of those things you just don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. But you talked to Fritz?
Mr. DECKER. That's when I talked to Fritz.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Fritz tell you, do you know?
Mr. DECKER. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't ready at that time?
Mr. DECKER. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought
in, he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that
afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down--of
course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had
worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the
city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our
pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that
afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that brought me the
date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is associated
with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my office and
members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening,
later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they
were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in
the city and they said yes--the next morning at 10 o'clock and then I
went to my home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10?
Mr. DECKER. They said "around 10 o'clock."
Mr. HUBERT. You got that, though, from newsmen, you think?
Mr. DECKER. Jim Kerr is the man that gave me the information.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to Fritz or Curry about that?
Mr. DECKER. No; but I checked it up at the city with somebody there,
and I don't know who it was now.
Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, don't know who it was?
Mr. DECKER. I checked it on the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember who you talked to?
Mr. DECKER. No; I don't remember who I talked to.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night?
Mr. DECKER. It was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and
that's all there was to it.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say your normal operations went on and I assume you
went to your home?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to your office on Sunday, the 24th of
November?
Mr. DECKER. It was before 10--around 10 o'clock--wait a minute, let
me see if I can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining
records in his possession]. I am considering that time of when I
was advised by the city that transfer might be made the first time,
if you care to incorporate this in there--the first time was 3:30
p.m. Saturday. At that time it was not at 10 o'clock. I have this
note--however, I arrived at my office early Sunday morning to recheck
all security measures that had been provided for the transfer of
Oswald, so what would be early for me, sir, I am a man that doesn't get
down to the office until 9 o'clock, and so if I arrived at 9 o'clock,
that would be early arrival for me, so you can place it near that
period.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Decker, I would like for you to carry on from there in
narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came
to your knowledge.
Mr. DECKER. You mean on that morning, on Sunday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. DECKER. For additional security, I placed all members of the
press--you see, I forgot to give you this a moment ago--on Saturday
afternoon and Saturday night when they learned that they were going to
transfer Oswald down there, the world's press moved from the 2000 block
on Main to the 500 block on Main. They were laying on my floor, they
were laying on the sidewalks----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was Saturday night?
Mr. DECKER. That was Saturday night, waiting for the Sunday morning
transfer. They just started moving out of the city hall and moved down
there--suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the
floors, we had cameras running out our ears.
Mr. HUBERT. Television too?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; everything--live television moved in, and some
remained at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press--back
and forth--so, I heard that my halls were full and my carport was full,
so I moved them all out. I told them to come in the building, bring
their cameras with them, that they were going to utilize, and the
remainder not operate unless they were on the street--into a room--you
will have to see my building to realize it--it's where you walk in
the front, you see, the building is on Main and you come in the rear
from the carport. There is a room that runs down about 45 or 40 feet,
which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are
attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the
jail, and I moved them into that and closed the doors on them.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you cleared them from where?
Mr. DECKER. I cleared them from the carport, where the man would be
brought in, and put them behind locked doors--I'm talking about steel
doors, now.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot
where the prisoner would be brought?
Mr. DECKER. Well, there may have been some on the street--I'm not so
sure of that--but what I mean, I cleared the port and kept them in this
room where they could only see him as he came by one door and by the
second door, and they were away from him a distance then. He was to be
in the carport and they were 20 or 25 feet back in the building.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had them under lock and key, but they could see
out--could they see through windows?
Mr. DECKER. No; bars, they were barred doors.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.
Mr. DECKER. They were barred doors.
Mr. HUBERT. And you put all the press people out there?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether they were press people or not?
Mr. DECKER. All in all--I was under the impression that they were--that
the majority of them were press people. I don't think there was anybody
in that room that wasn't.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you have any system of checking?
Mr. DECKER. No; I didn't personally check and search each one of them
because they had so darn much equipment--everybody had equipment--I
don't care who they were, and I had my officers mix and mingle with
them and knew most of them. You see, we got pretty well acquainted with
that press for 2 or 3 days there because they were continually in our
hair, you see.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead.
Mr. DECKER. At the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport--I
moved a couple of my men--four or five of my special men there to be
sure that it was clear when the man did arrive. I had been notified by
Curry that maybe they would bring him down in an armored car and I had
some other rumors--they would be bringing him in a car, and about that
time on those live TV cameras in that room, the flash came that shots
had been fired, that there was a riot on in the basement of the city
hall, and if you will pardon my French and you don't need to put this
in here, young lady, "We caught lightening in the jug in that room,"
sir. There is no question. They tried to crawl the walls, they tried to
tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out of
there and it looked like I would never get them out of the damn room.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the ones you had locked up?
Mr. DECKER. The press--they were locked up and couldn't get out of
there with all of their equipment, so as I say, "We caught lightening
in the jug." There wasn't any question. Finally, I got the doors
open and they tore out on Main Street and out on Houston Street and
commandeered cars with cameras hanging on their backs, some of their
own equipment, back up Main Street. I lost the majority of them then
for a few minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had
received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your
office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald?
Mr. DECKER. That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning--that's when
that occurred. That's when I got on the telephone, you see, sir--I'm
sure that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man--it
makes no difference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he
could work on an investigation the size of this one and therefore, of
course, you realize that my officers and I'm sure some of the city
officers, myself included, were working under just a little bit of
pressure.
Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man,
Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going
to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message
to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he
said, "Yes."
Mr. HUBERT. That was early in the morning, as I recall?
Mr. DECKER. It was 12:30; 12:30 in the night.
Mr. HUBERT. 12:30 on the morning of the 24th?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; and I called that office and I talked to a man whom I
believe to be Frazier, is that correct?
I don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had
heard?
Mr. DECKER. I told him what I had heard and talked to him about the
transfer, and I even went so far as to advise McCoy to call in a pair
of my supervisory personnel to stand by my office, that should they
decide to transfer this man, they would be available and we would have
the other men moved in there to make it secure--to have the security.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any suggestions that he be moved earlier than
the time that had been announced?
Mr. DECKER. I did. I suggested to get the man on down to the lower end
of Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the time announced?
Mr. DECKER. Yes; then.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to--Frazier?
Mr. DECKER. I'm sure I told it to Frazier and I'm sure there was one
or somebody in Fritz' office--I don't remember whether it was Baker or
Wells, I talked to one of those persons.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got this call from the FBI?
Mr. DECKER. When I got this call from my night sergeant.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still nighttime?
Mr. DECKER. Yes--it was in the morning--12:30 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately?
Mr. DECKER. I felt that he should be moved--yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What reply did you get?
Mr. DECKER. They stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't
feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done.
He called me back shortly and stated that he had had no success
in contacting them, and I think that was about the extent of our
conversation. I kept my men, my supervisory personnel standing by in
the event that they did change their timing or anything and notified
us. I asked him if he had any success to call me and that we would make
arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and I meant by
that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be done.
Mr. HUBERT. At this point let me ask you: When a man is transferred to
your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police?
Mr. DECKER. Anybody who wishes to.
Mr. HUBERT. So that Captain Fritz and others could have continued their
investigation?
Mr. DECKER. It's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until
they have finished their investigation in the city.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but the transfer to you would not have
cut off their opportunity to investigate?
Mr. DECKER. Oh, no--no--it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody--any law
enforcing agency. Just the same as Ruby, Ruby has been interviewed in
my jail by city police, the FBI agents, and incidentally may I ask you
a question?
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. DECKER. If you can answer it, all well and good--I can't. I keep
getting information here that we are going to have you people--you
people are going to attempt to interview this prisoner that I have
now, and if that is correct, why of course I would like to make some
provisions to talk to somebody before it happens. Of course, it will
take a court order for me to move him, which of course you know is no
trouble to obtain--you know that.
Mr. HUBERT. I can't comment on that.
Mr. DECKER. Don't, if you can't, sir--it's all right, but of course
I am leaving that with you that I would like to have some advance
knowledge. You can comment on that--that you will do it if you have any
knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who
are authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every
way possible.
Mr. DECKER. And, I would like to keep it out of the press also because
every time I turn around with Mr. Ruby, I am blasted with this.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that's another matter--that's out of my control.
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I repeat that I think that if such a thing should come
about, that you would be contacted and that the various problems that
might exist in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that
the persons representing the Commission would cooperate with you.
Mr. DECKER. I'm sure they will.
Mr. HUBERT. In every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course,
with their mission.
Mr. DECKER. It makes no difference. I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have
in this file Perry McCoy's statement. I think you have a statement from
McCoy.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. DECKER. He made one--stating the times that he talked to the man,
the conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what I said to
you.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we have covered the point.
Mr. DECKER. I know you have because I sent him up there to be
interviewed.
Mr. HUBERT. I have heretofore shown you two documents identified as
follows: The first being a report of an interview of you by Officer
Neeley.
Mr. DECKER. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. On November 27, 1963.
Mr. DECKER. That's where I told him I didn't wish to discuss the matter
any further over the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. I have identified it by marking on the margin, "Dallas,
Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5321, Deposition of Sheriff J. E.
Decker." That consists of one page.
The second document also consists of one page. It is a report of an
interview by James W. Bookhout of you on November 28, 1963. That
document I have marked for identification as follows:
"Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5322, Deposition of Sheriff
J. E. Decker," and I have signed my name. I think you have had an
opportunity to read these two?
Mr. DECKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair
statements of the interviews that you had with the FBI agents indicated?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make with respect to either one of
them?
Mr. DECKER. No, sir; I think they speak for themselves, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. May I ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to
make with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit 5321, which reads in
part as follows:
"Sheriff Decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter
further and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations
he had with the Police Department and declined to say whether he
advised the Police Department he had a preference as to the time of day
the transfer of the prisoner should be made."
Mr. DECKER. That was a telephone conversation. I had an office full of
people and that's what it was and I didn't make any statement--no more
than I made directly to you here about the call, and which McCoy made,
which is a statement which you have from McCoy in your files.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph
is that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the
telephone and in the presence of the people who were there?
Mr. DECKER. Well, I don't believe I went that far. I just said I didn't
care to discuss it any further and I got my friend Neeley off the line.
That's all there was to it. And I never had the opportunity to talk
to him afterward again until I met him several days ago, you know, he
works in north Texas and is in and out, but that's all the conversation
he and I had--what you have there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I had in mind to ask you was this: On the face
of the paragraph that I have just read from Exhibit 5321, it looks like
there was an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate
with the FBI--I am just simply wanting to get the record straight from
your point of view--as to what was your intention.
Mr. DECKER. As I said at that time--I didn't care to discuss it any
further at that time. That's all there is to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands
as it is?
Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir; I did not--at that time I didn't discuss it.
There was no reason to go into why, and why--I told him my reasons a
moment ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, sheriff, I have noticed that you have looked from
time to time at a book which I gather must be your own or the official
record?
Mr. DECKER. No; it's part of my records there. It doesn't have all the
statements in it as it should have.
Mr. HUBERT. Were copies of those statements made--are they available?
Mr. DECKER. They are yours--you can have them if you want them to keep
them.
Mr. HUBERT. This copy?
Mr. DECKER. You can have the whole thing. The only thing that is not
in there is McCoy's and about three or four other statements. I will
submit the whole thing to you if you want it right now. You can take it
with you. I have no objections.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to have this returned to you--this seems to be
a copy anyway--this is not the original.
Mr. DECKER. Yes; those are photostatic copies. I can furnish you those
others--I can furnish you that copy on McCoy and I can furnish the
copy on two or three others that I have down there but I don't know
where McCoy's is and I don't know whether they left it out of there or
not--since McCoy's I have testified to, I would like to furnish it to
you.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. DECKER. And will send it to you shortly.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark this document, then--I am marking it, "Dallas,
Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5323, Deposition of Sheriff J. E.
Decker," and I am signing my name to it.
The document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an Acco
fastener. It is called Acco Press on the inside and bears the label
on the outside, "Harvey Lee Oswald, WM 24, Murder--11-22-63 of John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; W-M-46, President of the United States. Assault to
murder: Gov. John B. Connally." On the left hand bottom side of the
cover is a sticker on which there is typewritten "File of: Sheriff's
Department, Dallas, Tex., Bill Decker, Sheriff," under which I have
written the identification of it as I dictated it a moment ago into the
record.
Turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into
parts. There is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the
left hand bottom says, "Crime Reports." In that are 2 yellow sheets
and 10 white sheets. I am marking the cover with my initials and the
yellow and white sheets with my initials, all in the lower right hand
corner. The next subdiv
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