Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15)
by United States. Warren Commission · English · Gutenberg #44010 · 1,532,381 chars · public domain (US)
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15)
This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere in the United States and
most other parts of the world at no cost and with almost no restrictions
whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms
of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online
at www.gutenberg.org. If you are not located in the United States,
you will have to check the laws of the country where you are located
before using this eBook.
Title: Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
Release date: October 21, 2013 [eBook #44010]
Most recently updated: October 23, 2024
Language: English
Other information and formats: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44010
Credits: Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard,
and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at
http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by
www.history-matters.com.
*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (10 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. X (OF 15) ***
Transcriber's Note: Stylized "U" and "V" are denoted as =U= and =V=.
Italics are represented by _underscores_.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ X
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume X:
Everett D. Glover, who became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald
following his return to Texas in 1962; Carlos Bringuier, Francis L.
Martello, Charles Hall Steele, Jr., Charles Hall Steele, Sr., Philip
Geraci III, Vance Blalock, Vincent T. Lee, Arnold Samuel Johnson, James
J. Tormey, Farrell Dobbs, and John J. Abt, who testified concerning
Oswald's political activities and associations; Helen P. Cunningham,
R. L. Adams, Donald E. Brooks, Irving Statman, Tommy Bargas, Robert L.
Stovall, John G. Graef, Dennis Hyman Ofstein, and Charles Joseph Le
Blanc, who testified concerning Oswald's employment history; Adrian
Thomas Alba, who was acquainted with Oswald in New Orleans in 1963;
Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., Mr. and Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias, Sr., Mr.
and Mrs. Jesse J. Garner, Richard Leroy Hulen, Colin Barnhorst, and
Mr. and Mrs. Arthur Carl Johnson, who testified concerning Oswald's
various residences; and Clifton M. Shasteen, Leonard Edwin Hutchison,
Frank Pizzo, Albert Guy Bogard, Floyd Guy Davis, Virginia Louise
Davis, Malcolm Howard Price, Jr., Garland Glenwill Slack, Dr. Homer
Wood, Sterling Charles Wood, Theresa Wood, Glenn Emmett Smith, W. W.
Semingsen, and Laurance R. Wilcox, who testified concerning contacts
they believed they had with Oswald under varying circumstances.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Everett D. Glover. 1
Carlos Bringuier 32
Francis L. Martello. 51
Charles Hall Steele, Jr 62
Charles Hall Steele, Sr 71
Philip Geraci III 74
Vance Blalock 81
Vincent T. Lee 86
Arnold Samuel Johnson 95
James J. Tormey 107
Farrell Dobbs 109
John J. Abt 116
Helen P. Cunningham 117
R. L. Adams 136
Donald E. Brooks 143
Irving Statman 149
Tommy Bargas 160
Robert L. Stovall 167
John G. Graef 174
Dennis Hyman Ofstein 194
Charles Joseph Le Blanc 213
Adrian Thomas Alba 219
Chester Allen Riggs, Jr 229
Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias 231
M. F. Tobias, Sr 251
Mrs. Jesse Garner 264
Jesse J. Garner 276
Richard Leroy Hulen 277
Colin Barnhorst 284
Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson 292
A. C. Johnson 301
Clifton M. Shasteen 309
Leonard Edwin Hutchison 327
Frank Pizzo 340
Albert Guy Bogard 352
Floyd Guy Davis 356
Virginia Louise Davis 363
Malcolm Howard Price, Jr 369
Garland Glenwill Slack 378
Homer Wood 385
Sterling Charles Wood 390
Theresa Wood 398
Glenn Emmett Smith 399
W. W. Semingsen 405
Laurance R. Wilcox 414
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Commission Exhibit No. 427 183
Bringuier Exhibit No.:
1 42
2 41
3 44
4 46
Cunningham Exhibit No.:
1 119
1-A 119
2 121
2-A 121
3 156
3-A 156
Dobbs Exhibit No.:
1 109
2 109
3 109
4 109
5 109
6 111
7 110
8 112
9 110
10 110
11 112
12 113
13 114
Garner Exhibit No. 1 49
Hulen Exhibit No.:
1 280
2 282
3 284
4 284
5 284
6 284
7 284
8 289
9 290
10 290
11 290
12 291
13 291
14 291
15 291
Johnson (Arnold) Exhibit No.:
1 97
2 99
3 99
4 100
4-A 101
5 101
5-A 103
6 101
7 103
Johnson (Gladys) Exhibit A 294
Lee Exhibit No.:
1 87
2 88
3 88
3-A 88
4 88
5 88
6 90
7 91
8-A 91
8-B 91
8-C 91
9 91
Pizzo Exhibit No.:
453-A 350
453-B 350
453-C 350
Semingsen Exhibit No.:
3001 406
5118 406
5119 407
5120 407
5121 407
Tobias (Mrs. Mahlon F.) Exhibit No. 1 233
Tobias (Mahlon F., Sr.) Exhibit No. 2 253
Tormey Exhibit No.:
1 107
2 107
Wilcox Exhibit No.:
3002 415
3003 416
3004 416
3005 417
3006 417
3007 422
3008 423
3009 423
3010 423
3011 423
3012 423
3013 423
3014 423
3015 423
3016 424
3017 424
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF EVERETT D. GLOVER
The testimony of Everett D. Glover was taken at 11 a.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, would you stand? Do you promise to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in response to my
questions in the taking now of your deposition?
Mr. GLOVER. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, you have received, I think, sometime last week
a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, advising
you we desire to take your testimony by deposition.
Mr. GLOVER. Advising me that you wanted to take my testimony. I don't
know whether it was specifically deposition, but yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now the Commission has been established to investigate and
report all the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy and any participation by Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald
and others in that tragic event.
We understand that you had some acquaintance with the Oswalds as well
as people in the community who, in turn, had an acquaintance with
the Oswald's, and that you also had an acquaintance with George De
Mohrenschildt, naming him in particular, although there are others I
will probably examine you about. But it is in those general areas that
I will proceed.
Now you are at liberty to have counsel present should you so desire,
and since you don't appear to have anybody with you, I assume you do
not wish any counsel?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is Everett D. Glover?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you reside in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your present residence?
Mr. GLOVER. My present residence is 9838 Webbs Chapel Road, Dallas, 20.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided there, sir?
Mr. GLOVER. Since January 1, of this year, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside immediately prior to that?
Mr. GLOVER. 5723 Southwestern Boulevard. I forget the zone in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How long had you resided there?
Mr. GLOVER. Sometime around April 20, of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I will have to keep going back. Where did you live prior to
that?
Mr. GLOVER. I lived at 4449 Potomac in Dallas also. It is in University
Park.
Mr. JENNER. For what span of time?
Mr. GLOVER. Span of time there, I don't have the figures right in my
mind, but approximately 2 years there.
Mr. JENNER. That would take you back to sometime in 1961?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. We'd have to check these to be sure, this is
approximately.
Mr. JENNER. That is sufficient. I will ask you this general question.
Over how long have you resided in Dallas or the Dallas area?
Mr. GLOVER. Since 1955. June 2, 1955, I took a position with Socony
Mobil Oil Co. and came here to work on that day. I have lived here
since that time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. GLOVER. I am married; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am married for the second time at the present
time. My former wife and a son by my former marriage are living in
Pennsylvania.
Mr. JENNER. Of what country are you a native?
Mr. GLOVER. United States.
Mr. JENNER. You were born in the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. How old are you?
Mr. GLOVER. 47 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born in the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. I was born in Worcester, Mass. I resided in Millbury,
Mass., but I was actually born in the city of Worcester.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about your education, please. Elementary school and
high school and if you went beyond high school.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I went to college at North Clark University in
Worcester, Mass., and I later went to the University of Wisconsin.
I completed a master's degree there and a great deal of work on a
doctor's degree.
Mr. JENNER. So you have a bachelor of arts degree?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And master's degree and you have completed a good deal of
work on a Ph. D.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were first married when?
Mr. GLOVER. 1940.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then?
Mr. GLOVER. At that time I was residing in Worcester, Mass.
Mr. JENNER. What was your wife's maiden name?
Mr. GLOVER. The name was Mary Elizabeth Butler.
Mr. JENNER. She was a resident of Worcester, was she?
Mr. GLOVER. She was a resident of Worcester.
Mr. JENNER. And was a native-born American?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have by that marriage?
Mr. GLOVER. I have one.
Mr. JENNER. He is with his mother, is he?
Mr. GLOVER. He is with his mother now in Pennsylvania; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That marriage was terminated in divorce when?
Mr. GLOVER. In Texas last year, 1963, in June, I believe it was, the
29th.
Mr. JENNER. All right, had you been separated from your wife prior to
that time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had been separated.
Mr. JENNER. When did the separation occur?
Mr. GLOVER. The separation occurred on approximately September 1 of
1962.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then?
Mr. GLOVER. I was residing at 4449 Potomac.
Mr. JENNER. Did your wife leave this vicinity then?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she left this vicinity then.
Mr. JENNER. And returned to where or went to where?
Mr. GLOVER. She didn't return. The circumstances of her leaving were
that my son is very interested avocationally in ice skating, and he had
earned enough money selling the Times Herald, the local newspaper, to
take him for 1 summer's ice skating, and it so happened that he ended
up in Hershey, Pa., which has a teacher or pro who is very good, and
the circumstances just happened that way.
Mr. JENNER. Indoor arena rink?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he stayed there for the summer and he wanted to stay
there beyond that time very badly. He wanted to continue his ice
skating under some such situation as he had there, and my wife and I
had not gotten along too well, and it seemed like a natural time to
make a separation, so she left and went to Pennsylvania during this
time at approximately the end of the summer and stayed there, and I
filed for a divorce.
Again I am not sure of the actual date, but approximately December 1
of that year, 1962. And the divorce was granted in the summer in 1963,
approximately June 29, of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And you remarried when?
Mr. GLOVER. I remarried August the 26th of this same year, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And remained in the same quarters, did you?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I moved about April 20 to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard
after having sold the house at 4449 Potomac, which I owned, and made
the divorce settlement.
Then I moved to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard where I rented a house with
two colleagues of mine where I worked, who were all unattached, since
I had to move from 4449 Potomac. One moved in on December 1, 1962, and
another one on January 1, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now when you and your wife separated, that is when she went
to Pennsylvania, Hershey, Pa., with her son for this period, did anyone
join you in your quarters as roommates or persons living with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, these are the people I just referred to. One man,
Richard L. Pierce, who works with me in the same section of my
laboratory, joined me December 1, of 1962, and the second man, Volkmar
Schmidt, who came from Germany and worked with the company as a
geologist, came to live with me approximately January 1.
It was an arrangement we tried out to see if there would be mutual
satisfaction.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a German derivation?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What is yours?
Mr. GLOVER. My background on that respect, my derivation would be
English on both sides. I know on the Glover side it is English and goes
back down to the 1700, but I don't know the other side very well.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What is your occupation, profession, business or
avocation?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, occupation is as a chemist working with the geology
group in the exploration section of Socony Mobil Oil Co., Field
Research Laboratory here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Your master's degree was in what?
Mr. GLOVER. It was in soil science.
Mr. JENNER. Involved chemistry?
Mr. GLOVER. Involved chemistry of fine grain material such as soil,
sediments, and so forth.
This is the reason that I am working where I am, because of the kind
of work I do, in the geology section. It is not soil per se, but using
techniques in dealing with problems similar to soil problems.
Mr. JENNER. And in turn, related to the discovery or production or
recovery of oil?
Mr. GLOVER. It is related particularly to the exploration for oil. That
is the study of the mechanical constituents of rocks in which the oil
is found.
I would say involving research work in order to find some more easily
recognized signs of oil. That is the long term objective.
Mr. JENNER. I would say this to you, sir. It is common that witnesses
can, especially in this type of examination where the witness sits
across the desk from a questioner, to drop his voice. So to the extent
that you can recall it, you won't do it all the time, keep your voice
up.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. When and under what circumstances did you first become
acquainted with Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Again this is connected with my ice skating activities
which I didn't mention. I mentioned my son's.
One of my avocations is ice skating. I do not know the exact time,
but sometime in the period, I would say 1956 to 1959, when I have
been ice skating, I met Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on the ice rink skating
by herself. She skated a considerable time, maybe, probably, part of
a year, and then later she brought Mr. De Mohrenschildt there, and
that is the first acquaintance I had with them. This was a casual
acquaintance.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. This is the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Was she then married to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I have no way of knowing. I wouldn't have thought of this
particularly except in conversation with the FBI. By their reaction,
what he said, apparently there was some question about this, but I
wouldn't have known that myself. I assumed she was.
Mr. JENNER. Well, in order that we are certain we have the same lady in
mind, did you learn what her first name was?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The name she wanted to be called was "Jon," the French
J-e-a-n-n-e.
I didn't see it written down, but she insisted on her being called
"Jon," the French.
Mr. JENNER. By American, it is Jeanne?
Mr. GLOVER. Jeanne, right.
Mr. JENNER. When you talk about ice skating, you mean figure skating?
Mr. GLOVER. Figure skating; right.
Mr. JENNER. This relationship, at least for a time, was relatively
casual?
Mr. GLOVER. It was very casual. In fact, they did not seem very much
interested in other people.
Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance ripen eventually into a friendship,
or at least a closer relationship than that you have indicated?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, there are two phases of my acquaintance with them.
The first phase ended when they didn't come to the skating rink any
more, and I cannot recall when this was. But if it were necessary to
find out, I could possibly find out more in detail, because they joined
the Dallas Figure Skating Club which I belonged to, and it was after I
had belonged to that organization a year or so that they left.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me for the moment your best recollection as
to when the first period of time to which you have reference ended?
Mr. GLOVER. Ended?
Mr. JENNER. That is, the casual acquaintance.
Mr. GLOVER. I really honestly don't know when that was.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can get at it this way. What is your present
recollection as to the intervening span in which you had either little
or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts? How long did that run?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know when I met them--I think I know when I met
them again. This was in connection with playing tennis. And that must
have been in the spring, I believe, of 1962, sometime in that period.
Mr. JENNER. You and your former wife were still living together at that
time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, that's right; my former wife was still in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the intervening period when you had a
little or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts covered as much as a
couple of years?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say that is what I think, but I could check this
point if necessary.
Mr. JENNER. We will let you know as to whether we want you to do that.
That acquaintance was then renewed under what circumstances?
Mr. GLOVER. I went to a party at a friend's house one night.
Mr. JENNER. Who is the friend?
Mr. GLOVER. The man's name is Lauriston C. Marshall.
Mr. JENNER. That is a new name to me.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he is called Larry, but his name, I am quite sure,
was----
Mr. JENNER. L-a-u-r-i-s-t-o-n C. M-a-r-s-h-a-l-l?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. He lived in Garland here.
Mr. JENNER. Garland, Tex.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right. This is not where I met the De Mohrenschildts, but
that is the connection. I was at his house and I met Sam Ballen. And
something was said about playing tennis, and it turns out that he likes
to play tennis and I also like to play tennis. I hadn't played very
much since I had been in Dallas, but I always wanted to play more than
I had a chance to, and he said, "How about tomorrow morning?" and I
agreed, okay.
So when I went to play tennis the next morning, it turned out that the
other two people involved in this match of four people, doubles, was
the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. You played doubles in tennis with him the next morning,
Sunday morning?
Mr. GLOVER. This sounds right. I believe it was a Saturday night party,
and I was playing Sunday morning. I believe that is what it was.
Mr. JENNER. And your friendship with the De Mohrenschildts blossomed?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, we played tennis an awful lot more. That was the
basis.
Mr. JENNER. You say the double, the lady who played tennis with you on
that initial occasion, was the same lady who had accompanied Mr. De
Mohrenschildt earlier on the ice rink?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me, please, and I want you to tell me in your
own words. I will try not to interrupt you, or at least I will keep it
to a minimum, what you learned about George De Mohrenschildt first?
Mr. GLOVER. You mean what I learned about him from my complete
acquaintance with him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. What he was like and so forth?
Mr. JENNER. What he was like, what you learned from him, if you can
indicate information you received directly from him as to his travels,
if any, as to his work, as to any associations he had.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, it is pretty hard to produce some order out of it,
because I never got a complete picture. But he had apparently, and I
believe this to be true, had come back from a trip to South America. I
mean to Mexico where he had walked from the north edge of Mexico down
to Central America, to Panama.
Mr. JENNER. Your information in this respect was obtained directly from
him?
Mr. GLOVER. Directly from him and also by films which he had showing
his trip, and also the fact that he apparently corresponded with Sam
Ballen during the time that he had been down there, and that was
mentioned, the fact that he had corresponded.
Mr. JENNER. Who mentioned it, Ballen or De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure about that, sir, but from one or the
other people, I am sure I got the distinct impression that they
corresponded.
He sent letters to Sam Ballen during the time he was there, so I do
believe, and I have no reason not to believe, that he made such a trip,
seeing the film.
Mr. JENNER. You saw the film?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also talked to Mr. De Mohrenschildt, or he with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had conversations with him about his trip to Mexico,
and he told you about it?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit the film?
Mr. GLOVER. He exhibited the film.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt the lady called Jeanne and who
preferred to be called "Jon" (Jeanne)?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she present when the film was shown?
Mr. GLOVER. She was present.
Mr. JENNER. And you also had conversation with her?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she confirm, as well as Mr. De Mohrenschildt, their
trip, walking trip into Mexico?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the De Mohrenschildts, either of
them having any--having met any officials with the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. During that trip?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. No, sir; not that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Not at all?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impression on that score, then?
Mr. GLOVER. I cannot remember any such thing was said.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, it is your impression that this was a
walking pleasure trip, a vacation, that sort of thing in which he and
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt traveled from the border--that would be the north
border of Mexico down as far as Panama?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, but I would amend your statement a little bit. You
said pleasure trip. It was in a sense, the way I understood the reason
for this was, that De Mohrenschildt had a son and daughter by his,
according to him, I believe, last marriage. The son had died of cystic
fibrosis, and I had the impression that he was very much attached to
his son, and this was one of the reasons that he sort of threw up
everything. I had been given to believe he was in the oil consulting
business.
Mr. JENNER. You were given to believe that De Mohrenschildt was in the
oil consulting business?
Mr. GLOVER. Previous to that and after that time, too, and that he had
thrown everything up and done this. He said that he and someone else
started to make this trip at a much earlier time. I am not sure what
time it was, but it was a long time. Seems to me he said they tried to
drive a Model "T" Ford and hadn't been successful.
Mr. JENNER. That would be quite a long time ago?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. That might be older than De Mohrenschildt is. I don't
know when he came here, really, of course.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. But anyway, maybe it is a Model "A" Ford. I really am not
sure about that point. It doesn't sound right, a Model "T" Ford.
Mr. JENNER. A Model "T," say that is my error, and the Model "A"----
Mr. GLOVER. Model "A" came in 1927 and 1928.
Mr. JENNER. 1927, 1928, and 1929. I was about a junior in college then.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I am a little bit younger than that. I was 10 years
old in 1927, but I distinctly remember the Model "T's." I am not sure,
but the important thing as far as my recollection was, he said he
wanted to take this trip and started to take it with another fellow and
he didn't get very far, but then he this time did take the trip and the
feeling I had was the motivation was--he had been completely broken
up by his son dying and he wanted to do this a long time ago, he went
ahead and did it.
And his wife wanted to do it with him and they did it.
Mr. JENNER. So the impression you obtained from the conversation you
heard overall was that the trip was not motivated by any objective or
plan to have any contact with any persons connected with the Soviet
Union, or representing the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get any such impression.
One other thing, I did get the impression, he mentioned specifically
that he had some business along the way, which was looking at old
mining areas.
Now I got the impression, although it was a hazy one, that he was
actually being paid by some private concern to look at old mining areas
as he passed through there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you have any impression of any other trips
that Mr. De Mohrenschildt made outside of this country?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. He told me that after the war he was on a, I don't
know whether he was connected--somehow he said with a State Department
venture which he was doing something with regard to advising in oil
matters in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had gone to Yugoslavia?
Mr. GLOVER. He had gone to Yugoslavia, he told me that. He described
the living there when he was there, drinking lots of wine in Yugoslavia
with women and so forth, and it wasn't very descriptive, but from what
he said, I got a very distinct impression he had been there, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression that he was married at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I did. In fact, the impression I have, and I am not
sure exactly where it all comes from, when I first met Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt, she was alone, and her husband was never with her, and
she was not very cordial at all.
You saw someone skating around and you'd just say a word and she was
not particularly cordial.
And even later, I am not sure exactly the amount of time, but maybe a
season of skating, he appeared.
And I assumed afterwards, I am not sure what basis I had, that this was
the time that he was away in Yugoslavia, and he came back. And I think
they referred to that afterwards, as if that were the case.
Mr. JENNER. In this early period was anything else said to you
affirmatively that Jeanne or "Jon" De Mohrenschildt was his wife at
that time?
Mr. GLOVER. When I come to think of it, I don't know of any specific
instance where there was a big point made of them being married, but I
assumed, since they were living together, and I just assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know they were living together?
Mr. GLOVER. At what time?
Mr. JENNER. The earlier period.
Mr. GLOVER. The earlier period, no. The later period I didn't live too
far away from them. I would go to their house and have a glass of beer
after the tennis match, and later I went to their house quite often.
Mr. JENNER. The tennis match was the second period?
Mr. GLOVER. The first period I don't have any proof whatsoever except
it seemed to me they were giving the same name.
Mr. JENNER. They were?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. Now that could be checked with the Dallas
Figure Skating Club where they were members. I assumed they were
husband and wife.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to George De Mohrenschildt's past in
connection with whether he had been married more than once?
Mr. GLOVER. He said he had been married four times, including this.
Mr. JENNER. Including the marriage to Jeanne or Jon?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he had had three marriages prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. That is what he said. He used to talk about that quite
often, make remarks to the fact that he had been married four times.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a son who died. Did he say anything
about having any other children?
Mr. GLOVER. A daughter.
Mr. JENNER. A daughter?
Mr. GLOVER. Same wife.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about whether she was alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he talked quite a bit about her.
Mr. JENNER. As being alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. As being alive.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion eventually in which there was a
discussion in which he indicated that she had been--she had become
deceased?
Mr. GLOVER. No. He never indicated anything to me that she had become
deceased. He talked quite a bit about her and was still talking about
custody of the daughter who was remaining with the mother, who was
trying to prevent any possible change in custody. That was right up to
the last I knew him.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether at any time you stated to the FBI
that he had two children and they had both died?
Mr. GLOVER. I stated that he had two children?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. And they had both died?
Mr. JENNER. Did die, yes.
Mr. GLOVER. I did not state such.
Mr. JENNER. Had two children by the marriage to Wynne Sharples.
Mr. GLOVER. The last name Sharples is correct, and I remember the
nickname "Deedee" of the woman who he said he was married to by whom he
had two children.
I did not say to the FBI that he had two children who died. I have
said he had two children one of which died who apparently had cystic
fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right, did he mention any other relative of his?
Mr. GLOVER. I was asked this question by the FBI, and I believe he
mentioned--I know he mentioned a brother--a brother who taught school,
and I believe it is Dartmouth, N.H., and I think he taught history.
Anyhow, he taught some subject or related subject on liberal arts, but
I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. He did mention Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure.
Mr. JENNER. Could have--could he have mentioned Princeton instead of
Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't think so, because I remember it being in that area
up in the upper New England States, somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of Jeanne or "Jon's" background?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The impression I got of her background was that
she was of White Russian stock and came through China where she was
married, and then came to this country. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. That she had come from Russia and gone to China?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know whether anyone said White Russia, but
whether they said that or not, I got the impression that she had come
originally from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything about--perhaps I'd better so pursue
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had come through China?
Mr. GLOVER. She lived in China and was brought up there as a young
girl, married, presumably, a Chinese man, and then came to this
country. That is the story I got, and apparently from what she said, he
did not adjust.
Mr. JENNER. She came here with her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that he was a Chinese?
Mr. GLOVER. I had that impression.
Mr. JENNER. After they arrived here, the husband did not adjust well?
Mr. GLOVER. Right, and it led to their breakup.
Mr. JENNER. And they were then divorced?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or at least broke up, as far as you know?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. And that her marriage to George De Mohrenschildt was her
second marriage?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had any
business or occupation herself?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, I did. She had worked some time during--at the time
that I first met her, she worked as a designer of clothes.
Mr. JENNER. For what company?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know what company, but she worked here in Dallas
at the time. I believe at the time she joined the Figure Skating Club,
someone learned that. I don't think she told me particularly, but
someone, that she did this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation on the subject with her
which served to confirm the report that you had obtained from someone
else? That is, that she worked as a designer here in Dallas.
Mr. GLOVER. I cannot recall at the time of the first meeting with her,
but at a later time, from things that were said, I am quite sure that
she referred to that time when she worked, yes, here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your general impression of her. What kind of person
was and is she?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the most obvious thing about her that I can recall
was her very, very great desire to help and dominate people, to help
solve their problems, is the thing that always impressed me about her.
She had one daughter, which I haven't mentioned, apparently by this
previous marriage, who grew up and who I met one time when she was
passing through.
Mr. JENNER. That is, passing through Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. With her husband. That was during the later period.
Mr. JENNER. She was married and lived somewhere else in this country?
Mr. GLOVER. All I know is that daughter and husband came from a Mexican
trip and were going to Alaska.
And she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she
had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to
sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs.
She tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at
which time, as one would say, I told her off, told her that I had my
own ideas about what I wanted to do about the situation and was not
interested in hers at all. But that is the most outstanding impression
I have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange
things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of her, please.
Mr. GLOVER. Physically, I am depending somewhat on some pictures she
showed. According to her, when she showed pictures in the album.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean--are you relating to the pictures to describe
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. No; well, I will just leave that out, if you prefer.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical
shape.
Mr. JENNER. About how old?
Mr. GLOVER. She looked like she was about 40 years old. She was
accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. We played
tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was
beginning to get quite a lot of fat.
Mr. JENNER. What about coloration?
Mr. GLOVER. Color of hair was brown, medium brown. I don't remember
people's eyes very well. It sort of seems to me like they were blue. I
am not sure. Her height was medium height.
Mr. JENNER. Medium for a woman and medium for a man differ--what would
you say, five two, or five three or five five?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not very conscious. I would say five five or five six,
maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall
you are?
The REPORTER. I am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about
five five with heels.
Mr. JENNER. Having observed the reporter, what is your present
recollection about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's height. Is she taller or
shorter?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say her height without her heels or anything was at
least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six
which I said, or possibly taller than that. I am not very sure.
Mr. JENNER. But she was inclined to be on the heavy side?
Mr. GLOVER. Slightly. She was getting heavy.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say she weighed, offhand?
Mr. GLOVER. She talked about that when we were playing tennis. I can't
remember. I really don't know. Maybe, I would say, 110 to 120, or so.
Mr. JENNER. She was five five and she weighed 110 pounds? She would be
awfully thin.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she must have weighed more than that. I am not very
conscious about that.
(Comments off the record.)
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe she would be 130 or so. Maybe she weighed a little
bit more than that.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt speak to you of his background?
Mr. GLOVER. He spoke somewhat of it. I didn't get a very clear picture
of the exact tracings of his background. I got a picture of him having
been born in Sweden. He said he came from Sweden. And having lived in
Russia for a short time, and then having left there. And the next thing
I remember him saying was that he fought with the Polish National Army
sometime in the Second World War, and had left the army. Now I am not
quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when Hitler
invaded, or some other time. I am not sure. It must have been then, I
guess, but that is the hazy impression I have of that part of it.
Mr. JENNER. At the time of the invasion of Poland by Hitler, which was
roughly September of 1939, De Mohrenschildt then left Poland?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he left the Polish Army at the same time. I really
don't know for sure when that was. I didn't think very much about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he came directly to this country at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not have any impression of him saying he came directly
here, no. The next thing I remember about his telling his background
was that he came here to this country.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Texas?
Mr. GLOVER. First he came to New York, according to his story. And I
remember one comment he made about that. He was wined and dined and
passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine,
but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. And the next
period I remember is that he was at the University of Texas, and I
assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. But you are not so sure about that? You have the impression
that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I assumed that he had had at least some school
knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in
general.
Mr. JENNER. He did say that he attended the university in this State?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he said he attended the University of Texas, I am
quite sure. At least I got that impression. I am not sure of his exact
words. He talked about being a student, so I guess I just assumed that.
I don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time
student.
Mr. JENNER. Describe George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. GLOVER. He is a heavy set rather Mr. Atlas type.
Mr. JENNER. Atlas or Adonis?
Mr. GLOVER. I notice that he is still around, Mr. Atlas. Very healthy
looking specimen. Tall and heavy set. Little bit clumsy in his
movements.
Mr. JENNER. A big man, in other words?
Mr. GLOVER. Big man, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And handsome?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, that is a matter of what you call handsome.
Mr. JENNER. You described him in that respect.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think he was a, he might be called handsome by
somebody. I would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen.
Mr. JENNER. Color of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Hair was some kind of brown.
Mr. JENNER. Had a good crop of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair.
Mr. JENNER. What about his personality?
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very great mixture of things.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very cynical sort of person. He was a Bohemian
sort of person.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but
what do you mean by "Bohemian type of person"?
Mr. GLOVER. I mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way he
wanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very
much about what anyone said.
He wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. He wanted to dress
the way he wanted to. He was not very conforming in his physical
dress or in his appearance or anything else. But the main thing that
impressed me most about him was his immaturity. He acted like a fellow
who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world
and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which
occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and
wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. He is sort of a
revolution inside of him. It never stops. He was sort of a rebel.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies
and had never grown up?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say that he was very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your time and my time, we talked about "Joe College." Is
that expression familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he that kind of a person, breezy?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; very much so. Very outspoken. His language sometimes
wasn't very nice. He said anything he wanted to say.
Mr. JENNER. Was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. Talked about himself a great deal and what his
accomplishments were and so forth?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he did. He was somewhat of a braggart. He did, like
many, many people, he embroidered things. I had the feeling one could
never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. He was like a
lot of people, he embroidered things. Not so much a braggart exactly as
just one who just talked a lot about everything. I think, yes; he was
sort of a braggart in a way.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say were his attitudes and his
relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Female sex?
Mr. JENNER. Overall attitude.
Mr. GLOVER. His overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex,
seemingly, the female sex. He used to talk about every female he saw
go by. He would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female
he saw going down the street. And his attitude toward males, as far as
I know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that
subject.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed considerable interest in ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of
a preoccupation thing with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was
in their presence?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. He would act
very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. I don't
know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. I never saw any evidence
of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me your present overall impression of George
De Mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered
things he said. And also from his political opinions, which he gave out
from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give the circumstances and your--first give
me your overall impression as to his political views. And I mean
political in the sense of, first, I mean political in the sense of the
views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in
particular, I mean as against any political party.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he said--the main thing there is his cynical attitude
towards things. I don't think he respected any kind of authority. I
think that he is sort of apolitical. He sort of resented having to
conform very much. But his political views, as far as our system versus
communism, for instance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. He made
remarks which suggested that he didn't like the way the Communists were
treated. Very pointed remarks, sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't like the way the Communists were treated?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he didn't like the treatment that some Communists were
given. I can give you an example.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in this country or in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I was thinking of outside this country.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. So I would say that the whole question----
Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that respect which gave you that
impression?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I remember that at the time of Castro and Cuba, when
the incident occurred of removing the Russian missiles----
Mr. JENNER. Missile sites?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was very much upset about this, and he was very
angry at Kennedy for doing what he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say, as best you can give us in substance? I
know you can't remember the words, but in substance, what he said.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the substance of what he said, he didn't like what
Kennedy was doing at all. And the reason he gave, as far as I can
remember, was the possible involvement in a nuclear war.
Mr. JENNER. You seek to imply that De Mohrenschildt was opposed to what
Kennedy was doing, not because of dislike for Castro, but rather that
he feared we would be, those actions might involve us in a nuclear war?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in this particular point, yes. He also remarked,
which shows that he had sympathy with Castro--it is not possible for me
to separate those exactly, but in this particular thing, I remember one
time being very, very excited about the missile business in Cuba, and
this business came up that that would lead us into a nuclear war. In
other words, he was suggesting that he was sympathetic with Castro, at
least I thought so--well, Castro is all right, he can't do any harm, he
is just a little guy, and this is the general impression I got. Again,
those may not be the exact expressions that he may have used.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me an example that he was sympathetic with
what Castro represented?
Mr. GLOVER. He certainly never, in my acquaintance with him, tried to
make out a case for the Communist system against our system. It was
just sort of his shouting off about this thing I just described. And
also I remember one very distinctly, which I told the FBI. One time
there was a cartoon in the newspaper which pictured Khrushchev with the
face of a pig, a caricature, and George was very, very indignant about
them doing that. And I said to George, well, he does look like a pig.
And after all, the caricature has been around since the days of the
famous Frenchman----
Mr. JENNER. Lautrec?
Mr. GLOVER. No; it isn't Lautrec. It's Daumier. I don't know, but that
is what I was thinking, and he does look like one. And so he showed on
this point that he resented something very much about this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever get into any political discussions with De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. There is not very much I remember, because as I say, there
was never any real discussion about such issues, that amounted to
anything, but there were occasions when he seemed to agree to what I
consider a reasonable view.
For instance, things in Russia at the present time. I recall one
instance once before that there was a discussion--whether it came from
a remark of a public figure in the press or somebody else who may have
been present, but there was a discussion about the fact that under the
Khrushchev regime things had loosened up somewhat in Russia. Whoever
was responsible for it, I think it was a public figure at the time who
was talking, said that it was very true, things had loosened up in
Russia, but how does the Russian feel about this. The answer was that
the Russians didn't feel that it is necessarily going to stay that way
very long. I remember talking about this in the presence of George and
he seemed to be quite agreeable on this idea.
Mr. JENNER. When is the last time you saw De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I saw him sometime in the early part of May, I believe. I
moved into my house at 5723 Southwestern about the 20th of April, and I
had taken all his furniture which he had, looking for a place to store,
and we three fellows were needing furniture, because I sent all my
furniture to my former wife, all the good furniture, so he was going to
let us use the furniture for as long as we wanted, to save him storage
fees and help us out. We moved it over, and then he finally, on leaving
to go to Haiti, before he was going, he dropped by the house sometime
in the day he departed, I think it was in the last few days of May,
first week or two----
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. 1963, right. He came by the house looking for something
which had been stored in some of the boxes, and they were loaded with
their trailer and cargo to load on the boat in Florida where they going
to take off from. They were sending goods by boat and flying themselves.
Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you have seen him?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the last time I have seen him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you heard from him at any time?
Mr. GLOVER. Have I heard from him?
Mr. JENNER. What has been the extent of that contact, first?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he wrote to me and his wife wrote to me telling about
how things were going in Haiti, and I have replied very little to him.
I have replied, I don't know how many times, maybe once when they first
went down there, and I replied after January 1, when I moved. I shipped
most of his furniture to a storage, keeping some back that I can still
use in the new house, and I wrote to him telling him, I told him I
didn't need the furniture, and I haven't corresponded with him very
much.
Mr. JENNER. In that correspondence he--has he given you any information
as to what they are doing in Haiti? Did you have any information before
they left for Haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going
to do?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I have the information from talking very much about
his Haiti venture, and the impression I got was somewhat hazy, but the
first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for
chemicals and minerals.
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mr. GLOVER. Minerals of economic value.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do
this work, or was it independent?
Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that he was the one who was running
the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman
that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing
this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set
up business ventures. That is what the other part involved, and I had
the impression that this all tied together.
Mr. JENNER. This was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a
joint venture of some kind?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really
running the show, and I also had the impression, which he didn't
emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was
any money needed.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your knowledge and also your impression of the De
Mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that they didn't have very much money,
because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting
business had gone down pretty much. This was about the time when the
companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts,
and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in
getting any oil consultant jobs. This was the impression I got from him
and he didn't do very much, except I got the impression that he might
have owned some leases, and he----
Mr. JENNER. Oil leases?
Mr. GLOVER. Oil leases. And he talked about one particular one where
there was litigation about it. And I got the impression that he didn't
have very much money, except possibly some money coming in from the
oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. They didn't have anything
but very simple food, simple clothes. They hadn't bought anything new.
They had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they
did, however, have a nice car. But they didn't spend a lot of money and
didn't seem to have a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say they attempted to live frugally?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say they attempted to live frugally.
Mr. JENNER. Speaking there about attire, in this connection, as
evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall
mentioning to the FBI their tennis clothing and from time to time
other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being
appropriate?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all
the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which
the lower half was sort of Bikini like. And George just wore a pair
of shorts. That is accepted attire for a man tennis player. We used
to go to the Dallas Athletic Country Club east of the city to play,
sometimes, because Sam Ballen had a membership, and she was told it is
against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about Sam Ballen. Who is he?
Mr. GLOVER. Sam Ballen, I met him in the way I told you, and he told
me that he had been in the stock market business in New York, and came
here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library
for oil well logs. These are the records of the physical measurements
made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this.
I have known him for the past 2 years--I met him actually when I told
you; at Lauriston Marshall's house sometime in 1962, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Is Ballen a friend of Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Ballen is a friend of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they were closely acquainted?
Mr. GLOVER. Fairly well, yes; closely acquainted.
Mr. JENNER. Did you play tennis together with Mr. Ballen and the De
Mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? Did you continue to have this
acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have
testified?
Mr. GLOVER. Very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions thereafter--social events, parties,
visits in the home, and what not, that Sam Ballen participated?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were occasions, although the main association
was that we played tennis together. We made a very good team. We have
about the same degree of skill at it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does he reside here in Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he does.
Mr. JENNER. He still stays--lives here?
Mr. GLOVER. As far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of a company with which he is associated?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not know the name offhand.
Mr. JENNER. And that his name is spelled B-a-l-l-e-n, and his first
name is Samuel?
Mr. GLOVER. I just call him Sam. I don't know whether his name is
Samuel or not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about the De Mohrenschildts' views
toward religion?
Mr. GLOVER. They are very much against religion, I am quite sure. They
don't think very much of organized religion at all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information more definite than that? Are
they atheistic, are they just--don't have any feeling one way or the
other?
Mr. GLOVER. Be hard for me to say. I would think probably that
atheistic would be more the correct term, but I don't recall specific
remarks that they made.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any
political affiliation of the De Mohrenschildts together or separate?
Mr. GLOVER. Any kind of affiliation?
Mr. JENNER. Political or otherwise.
Mr. GLOVER. Political or otherwise. Well, business, he belongs to the
Petroleum Club. He talks about being down there. And I don't know of
any other organizations.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. GLOVER. Well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that,
because of his son.
Mr. JENNER. That is a charity organization?
Mr. GLOVER. A charity organization. And they were very active in this,
because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very
active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get
money for this purpose. I don't know of any other organizations. I
remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at
the--I don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for
retarded children over in the Cedar Springs area, which it seems that
a Mexican-American organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to
go to that. I don't know if they were members or not. I think that was
sort of a Mexican-American, I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any
political organizations?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not have any impression that he belonged to any.
Mr. JENNER. Did they express what their politics were? That is, say, as
between being Republican or Democrat?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall anything very strong on that subject.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, during your time here in Dallas, become acquainted
with Marina and Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state when it was that you first became
acquainted with either or both of them.
Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to give a specific time. I met Marina first
at the home of George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred
and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting
was held, about that? That is, whether this came all of a sudden
without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion
with the De Mohrenschildts prior to that time. Just tell me the whole
circumstances leading up to the moment you met Marina.
Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to state a specific time, but of course it
was somewhere, I am not really able to say whether it was sometime in
December, or in January, or sometime in that time, or in the first part.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. GLOVER. This would be the year 1962-63.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you
separated. Was that in December of 1962, did you say?
Mr. GLOVER. No, we separated before September 1, 1962. I am not able
to say when she (Marina) came to the De Mohrenschildts. Marina came
to the De Mohrenschildts several times. The first time I met her and
subsequent times, she was also there.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been--has there been any conversation about the
Oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met
Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure about this, but I would think, yes;
they had mentioned her.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts had mentioned her?
Mr. GLOVER. Had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but
I really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before
I came over there. I rather think they mentioned she was coming there
previous to my meeting her.
Mr. JENNER. What did they say about her in advance of the meeting?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, they told about, this is as far as I remember, that
they told about her coming over here with Oswald and, as far as I
remember the impression I got from De Mohrenschildt--it might not have
been entirely from him, it may have come later--Oswald had gone to
Russia to live and had become a citizen. That is the impression I got.
And that he had decided he didn't like Russia and he came back here and
brought his Russian-born wife with him, and were living in Fort Worth,
and they were having trouble getting along, the Oswalds were.
Mr. JENNER. Getting along with each other?
Mr. GLOVER. Getting along with each other.
Mr. JENNER. You remember that distinctly?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I remember that very distinctly, because they were
trying to find a place for Marina to stay.
Mr. JENNER. You learned all this through conversations with the De
Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And either or both of them told you that the Oswalds were
not getting along?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that they were seeking what for them?
Mr. GLOVER. They were seeking a place particularly for Marina to stay.
She had a baby. And seeking a place for her to stay where she could
just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with
her, Lee Oswald didn't get along, and I am not sure whether he had lost
his job or something. It was suggested it was financial difficulties,
the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place
for her where she could live.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of the De Mohrenschildts speak Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. So far as I know, both of them spoke Russian.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; spoke Russian, what I assumed to be Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What is your command, if any, of the Russian language?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know "Da," but I know very little about it. I have
started to study Russian in connection with scientific work, because it
is very valuable to be able to speak Russian, and I have always wanted
to learn to speak Russian, but somehow I never got to do this. It is
very slight, actually, and they both, as far as I know, spoke Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that
you met Marina on this first occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure again as to all the details, but I
believe that it was this way. That they told about her and that, I came
over there one night when she was there. I might have been invited to
dinner when she was there, or I might have just come over when she was
there, and they called me during the day and said, "Glover, come over
and meet this woman."
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that either George or Jeanne called
you and asked you to come over to their home to meet Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am quite sure that he invited me to come over there,
because that is usually the way. They were always inviting me to come
over.
Mr. JENNER. And your impression, this was an evening or during the
daytime?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come
and stay for a day. It might be in the evening or it might have been on
a weekend during the daytime. My impression was, it was in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. But your impression also was that this time that she had
been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not.
Mr. JENNER. I'm just asking you what your impression was at that time.
Mr. GLOVER. At that time that I first saw her?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the De
Mohrenschildts.
Mr. GLOVER. My impression was that she probably had, but I really
couldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said that evening indicating how she had reached
the De Mohrenschildt's home?
Mr. GLOVER. You mean just physically brought there?
Mr. JENNER. Had they, the De Mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? Had
she gotten there by bus herself? Had she gotten a cab, or how did she
get there?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember specifically how she had been brought
there.
Mr. JENNER. That subject was not raised so as to give you the
impression one way or the other, is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, I
am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, I
had the impression that she was living in Fort Worth at the time, and
I know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time,
I volunteered, since I had a car, to take her down to the bus station
with the De Mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to Fort Worth,
and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we
took her over to Fort Worth. But I am not sure whether that was this
time or another time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then in that connection that
there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or
that she was capable of doing so?
Mr. GLOVER. That she was capable, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she knew enough about bus travel between Fort Worth
and Dallas and the location of the De Mohrenschildt home so that she,
unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, at least go to the Fort Worth bus. I'm not sure about
whether they would pick her up or what. That is the impression I got
from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to
leave by bus.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present? Yourself, Marina, and the two De
Mohrenschildts on this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you can recall?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so, but I could not be a hundred percent
sure. I believe that is the way it was.
Mr. JENNER. Have the De Mohrenschildts said anything to you about how
they had become acquainted with the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. They had not said anything specifically, but again, I had
the impression that because they were Russian speaking and knew some
of the other people around the area who were Russian speaking, they
learned from people they knew in Fort Worth of this Russian girl who
was here in this country.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did they say about their interest in her
beyond, let's say, pure curiosity?
Mr. GLOVER. That is really the extent of what they ever said, that
they were curious, and also trying to help her out. This was right in
character with Jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such
situations.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a generous person in that respect?
Mr. GLOVER. I think you would call it generous although you have to
realize this is a double-edged sword. People sometimes do things in
order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do
things out of the goodness of their heart, and I think it was one of
the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. Maybe this
is my male bias coming into it.
Mr. JENNER. But in any event, they were, on the surface at least,
cordial, and seeking to help her?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you detect that that was an active and not merely a
passive effort on their part?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I felt it was an active thing.
Mr. JENNER. They were pursuing it with some vigor?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take George in particular. Was it characteristic of
him? Was he a generous man and wanted to help others?
Mr. GLOVER. Much less so, I would say, than Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I
rather would attribute it to her. Maybe it is my male bias coming out,
blaming it on Jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he
went along with this too, and there were several other people I met
there who they were trying to be good to. I think they were trying
to do this to help. And shortly after my former wife left and I was
by myself, I think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do
something to help me out.
Mr. JENNER. You met her on this occasion. How many additional occasions
were there?
Mr. GLOVER. I can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she
came several times to the De Mohrenschildt house.
Mr. JENNER. Alone?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she came several times alone, and I would say two or
three times I saw her there.
Mr. JENNER. And each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even
more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not
accompanied on any of those occasions by Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was the length of this visit that you had on the first
occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not really sure of the time, but the impression I had,
it was in the evening, and again I am not sure which one of the times,
but the impression I had, it was in the evening that I was over there,
either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. Well, we took,
maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around 9 o'clock
or something like this, to get a bus to Fort Worth. Whether this was
the first time, I really can't be sure.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she and her husband were living
together at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was my impression. I am not really sure now whether
anything was said to the contrary on that or not. My impression was
that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the
impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her
husband?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I think this is subsequent to this first time I met
her. Whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay
with someone here in the Dallas area.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know the name?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not remember the name of the people, but they had
arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as I recall, a
fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name Elena Hall trigger your recollection?
Mr. GLOVER. Elena Hall?
Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall ever having heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be very sure about that. They might have
mentioned a name, but I do not recall. They mentioned the names of
quite a number of people to me, and I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Marina on this first
occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent
person caught up in the situation. Although I have very little to
go on, and I could not communicate with her, only through the De
Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak any English on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. She spoke practically none. No English. She understood a
little bit that people said in English.
Mr. JENNER. But she did not speak it?
Mr. GLOVER. She couldn't speak English. It was very difficult for me to
get any real good impression from her.
Mr. JENNER. And she was quite young?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was quite young.
Mr. JENNER. Let's say this is February of 1963, did you say that was,
or March?
Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime in the first part of the year.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was probably in January. That would be my best
recollection. It was during that time. It might have been later than
that. I am hazy. The only thing I have to go by is, I learned later
after discussion of the visit of Oswald and his wife to our house, I
learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place
in the latter part of February.
Now I did not recall, I just talked with the other people who lived
in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. And
other people present recalled this, so this is how I figured the whole
business. And I know I met Marina previous to that time.
I know I was away for a week in February when I went on a business trip
to Pennsylvania, and so I assume it was somewhere in January, but I
really do not remember.
Again, if I had to recall those events, I might be able to. I can
remember some of the events, but I am not very sure about it.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you meet Marina after this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, again, I am not sure at all about those occasions.
She would come and stay at the house, and if I came in from playing
tennis with George, she might have been there. This may have happened
two or three times.
Mr. JENNER. There came an occasion, did there not, in which you met Lee
Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; when I met Lee Oswald the first time, was at their
house.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany the De Mohrenschildts on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. When was that and how did that arise, and what was the
circumstance?
Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I can remember about this, is again to fix
this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, Oswald and
his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late February,
so it must have been previous to that.
Mr. JENNER. Does the date February 22, 1963, refresh your recollection
as to the occasion they came to your home?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think I remember in the conversation with the FBI
they mentioned a date about Washington's Birthday.
Mr. JENNER. It is not Lincoln's?
Mr. GLOVER. I think it was Washington's Birthday, but I don't remember
dates, so I had no actual recollection of the specific date.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is Washington's Birthday. [Checking calendar.]
Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it
was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week.
Mr. JENNER. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday.
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this.
Mr. JENNER. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous
to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time.
Mr. JENNER. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you
set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was
unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There might have been some additional occasions when you
saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your
first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two
Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people--I was included--to
their house.
Mr. JENNER. About when was this?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and
his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a
week before that.
Mr. JENNER. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several
times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner,
when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was
present. I am sure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald
and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. He was then living with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I
have just a poor impression as to whether----
Mr. JENNER. What about Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. Pierce was not there, I know that.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. You are talking about the first meeting? I know
Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works
also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were
additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their
names?
Mr. GLOVER. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and
I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that
well.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a large party?
Mr. GLOVER. There were quite a number of people for the small
apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people.
Mr. JENNER. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more
people in addition to these you have named?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely
wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there.
Mr. JENNER. Richmond?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called
him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is
Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He
may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been
there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party?
Mr. GLOVER. Sort of a dinner.
Mr. JENNER. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression
of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did
anything impress you?
Mr. GLOVER. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of
things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly
well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair
of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were
dressed up.
Mr. JENNER. Even though this was in February 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was
informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was
also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more.
Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to
some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember
what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they
were different people than a lot of other people.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be true of each of them?
Mr. GLOVER. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't
remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little
girl with a baby over on the bed sofa.
Mr. JENNER. She brought the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again,
I am not a hundred percent sure.
Mr. JENNER. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with
her?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe she always had her child with her.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had
the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion?
Mr. GLOVER. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very
little.
Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. No, I don't remember whether there was any conversation in
Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any
myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked
with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked
English.
Mr. JENNER. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language?
Mr. GLOVER. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen
and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a
course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory,
a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take,
but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who
continued.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and
Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the--I am quite
sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the
teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas
who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe
he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was
teaching on the side.
Mr. JENNER. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not?
Mr. GLOVER. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he
is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife
does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't
recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen
ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think,
was related to a woman who--I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons
later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil
company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do
not remember.
Mr. JENNER. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr. GLOVER. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite
sure--I can't remember whether it was Voshinin--it is not the Voshinin
that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. It is a different one?
Mr. GLOVER. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial
meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the story from the beginning that the De
Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't
talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me.
In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't
believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did
and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I
mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow
was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily
possible for a person to do this, that this made sense.
In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The
thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where
I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what
he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known
by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he
were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he
would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the
FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written
to me quite recently.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. GLOVER. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been
checked by the FBI----
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mr. GLOVER. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated
in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't
remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter,
but words to the effect that they passed on him, or he was harmless,
or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from
their point of view.
Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made
an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald was all right?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by
your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not
in my words.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of
his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated
specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about
Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was
acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact
way he put it. It is in the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that
subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time
when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting
her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect,
that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they
didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he
checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently
you made a mistake. Do you recall that?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In this connection, what do you mean by that?
Mr. GLOVER. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of
assuming that a man in his situation--of assuming that, because this
man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had
brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would
know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I
felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI
thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake
when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed
that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this
conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do
that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22,
1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls
or had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion
that you met him?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't
really talk to him very much.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education,
or lack of it?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had
a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life.
Mr. JENNER. Very much in his life in the way of material things?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Or very much in the way of an education?
Mr. GLOVER. Material, educational, and spiritual.
Mr. JENNER. Spiritual or education or material?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that
down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does
not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him
very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting
at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from
that total rather than any detailed thing he said.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what
your impression of Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I
am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I
am trying to fix a cutoff period.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first
place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was
not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not
satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when
he came back, so he was very maladjusted.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the
impression that he was generally a maladjusted person?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude
that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and
political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person
of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for
travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you
moved?
Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a
capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal
word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He
obviously didn't get along with his wife. He was very----
Mr. JENNER. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in
her presence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the
description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a
very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed
things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This
includes his relationship to other people, like his wife.
Mr. JENNER. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring
out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts
said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the
Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived
in regard to that. They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say
community, I mean a circle of people.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence
of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De
Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they
didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into
the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And
he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the
picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. And such people who
cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are
not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife.
This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De
Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the
Oswalds being antagonistic to each other.
Mr. JENNER. Now this first occasion then was an evening at the De
Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior
notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and
met them?
Mr. GLOVER. No.
Mr. JENNER. You knew in advance?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe they said when they called that these people were
going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that
struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening?
Mr. GLOVER. I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Or at least a language that was not English?
Mr. GLOVER. I really couldn't be sure on that point.
Mr. JENNER. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I
believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'.
Mr. JENNER. Was that at your home?
Mr. GLOVER. That was at my home.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing,
and who was there.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this
first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar
Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and
we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow,
like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an
unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my
experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the
fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also
said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of
that. Who made the statement to you?
Mr. GLOVER. One of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle
remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it
several times?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In talking to you about the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. They did say collectively--I mean--they did say
affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse
to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the
English language?
Mr. GLOVER. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her.
Mr. JENNER. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now.
Mr. GLOVER. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an
acquaintance of mine----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine?
Mr. GLOVER. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the
Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had
members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I
remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56,
I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the
Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing
some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more
than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with
the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs
around the town.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the
church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe
she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church.
Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I
remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing
group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the
singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir.
Mr. JENNER. Was this kind of a madrigal group?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the
membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead about your party.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few
occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking
with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party,
at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was
going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she
was trying to brush up on the Russian, on--or maybe I am just thinking
she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really
know--I think at that time I was aware of the fact she had majored in
Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's
wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her,
and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be
interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said
she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent
that you knew about them at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I am sure I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or
knowledge of the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was
brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.
Mr. JENNER. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as
Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about
the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At
the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory,
Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty
MacDonald?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a
hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us,
that were living together. I am sure he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were
separated?
Mr. GLOVER. I was.
Mr. JENNER. As of that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited
him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her
because of the Russian.
Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the
situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he
said he would come and he came.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression
at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had
taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school
and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive
he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian
and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.
I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I
talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.
Mr. JENNER. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as
to who attended your party?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I don't call it a party.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop
in?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were
going somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Did the discussion take place--were there any discussions
during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his
political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were discussions.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about them.
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may
be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present,
but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned
this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall
impression--he was apparently a Marxist.
Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words
himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce
or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what
a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their
style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else
present said he was a Marxist----
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any,
between Marxism and Communism?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called
Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist
theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't
like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.
Mr. JENNER. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure
up to those theories?
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently so.
Mr. JENNER. His so-called ideals?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, he had--what he had come back to here in
America didn't measure up to what he----
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently. He said so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on
this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the
impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he
said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all
to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't
think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in
the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American
system measured up to his ideals.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in
Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there was considerable.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some
kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I
don't remember really too many strong impressions.
The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were
the--was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia
after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was
the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or
conversation with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. That occurred at this meeting at your house?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so, yes.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call
them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that
arranged?
Mr. GLOVER. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived.
By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and
they were living in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De
Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone
number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone
number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the
house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he
would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De
Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address
and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to
throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses,
I copied it down in my address book. I just in--I just had a feeling I
ought to record this.
Mr. JENNER. He lived on Elsbeth Street?
Mr. GLOVER. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I
remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the
photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a
printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come
over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over
and pick him up. My wife remembers that I was down at the ice rink
skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald
or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an
automobile and operate an automobile?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not recall anything said about that.
Mr. JENNER. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this
party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be
a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being
associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful
that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering
for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some
other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a
gathering.
Mr. JENNER. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event.
Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he
expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your
impression of the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said
specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did
not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is
partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the
impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type
of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope,
but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something
like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it
was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their
experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction
certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize
the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it.
And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember
specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good
impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with
things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was
going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I
remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't
remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the--it might have
been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to
woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night
or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on
another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought
out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have
been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone.
An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of
the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were--who
were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50
years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was
the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the
treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there
were Cubans.
Mr. JENNER. It seems what?
Mr. GLOVER. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans
who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being
indoctrinated.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. This is while they were in Russia, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of
some Cubans being in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume
this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having
actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the
treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it
didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did
talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they
were really treated well.
Mr. JENNER. The Cubans were?
Mr. GLOVER. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything
they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the
Cubans, as it were, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the
Cubans?
Mr. GLOVER. I could not remember any specific view about them, but
I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were
there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that
the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in
all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making
statements, but he would give the impression that these people must
have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians.
Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated
very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about
his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to
conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now
recall?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at
the moment.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife
very much.
Mr. JENNER. When she talked to Marina, in what language did she speak?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't
believe Marina was able to converse in English.
Mr. JENNER. Did she translate for Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I believe she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald translate for her?
Mr. GLOVER. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that
he did.
Mr. JENNER. This was in a house or in an apartment?
Mr. GLOVER. It was in a house.
Mr. JENNER. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather
together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature,
were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general
vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and
interplay?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only
person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she
was the only woman.
Mr. JENNER. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and
leave right away?
Mr. GLOVER. They stayed a very brief time.
Mr. JENNER. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody
other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina,
is that a fair statement?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the
beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9
o'clock and stayed a short while and left.
Mr. JENNER. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of
that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it
was about the system, he didn't know.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a
corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in
communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site
anywhere? So far, that is a fairly general statement?
Mr. GLOVER. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want
to elaborate on in that connection?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was
essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated,
what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the
answer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to why, if you had an
impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English?
And if so, what was that impression?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting
to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual
situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of
the two is much, is very much the dominating person.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I
heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could
get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I
assumed she was staying with him.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently,
as to whether he was a stable person?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly
well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was
very candid, but I felt----
Mr. JENNER. You did not think he was very candid?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that
whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had
the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would
go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I
did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the
impression of him being violent, which later came out, and----
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who
was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of
life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that
point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly
of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had
another job--I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got
a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got
a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he
was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person
lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that
connection, or did you acquire?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he
discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He
apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in
spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in
this--in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I
am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of
hindsight.
Mr. JENNER. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to
get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression
of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what
he wanted at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of
knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man
whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he
really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity
since, what his regions of reaching and desires were?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person
in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he
had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he
probably never would discover what he was going to live by--of course I
didn't keep contact with him after this meeting--and, consequently, had
no further chance to observe him.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to talk about that in a moment.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the
world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his
lot in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he
would rationalize to avoid self-analysis?
Mr. GLOVER. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the
time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because
I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an
interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about
something by somebody who might have some status in society where he
didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly
bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and
unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment.
Mr. JENNER. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you
recall, concerning the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about
the system not being a satisfactory one.
Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy mentioned?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or
supporting any particular political causes?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not say anything about that at all.
Mr. JENNER. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might
or could be or was--might be or could be or was a person given to
violence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to
violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife,
apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think
that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say,
but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or
something like this.
Mr. JENNER. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this
because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house
where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it
was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure.
It was nothing of significance that existed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time
subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence
of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in
early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess
it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a
record player which they had loaned me.
Mr. JENNER. From the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and
Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts)
wanted to give the record player to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and
I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob
Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us
and left it off at Marina's place.
Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up
before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up
by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was
wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was
going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but
apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a
house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door
in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat
of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the
name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was the first----
Mr. JENNER. Neely Street?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because
it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, this was an apartment building or home
different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. So I gave her the record player.
Mr. JENNER. Gave it to her?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do.
Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know he was not there?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure
about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there,
because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over
there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had
the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to
explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression
he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had
with Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. That was the last time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time
thereafter?
Mr. GLOVER. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after
that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not
sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record
player--I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her
that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and
that she--first of all, the events after that went like this.
The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and
had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the
Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that
Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and
also left to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. This was in the spring of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at
this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to
New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I
do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think
I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having
heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house
until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and
had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over
and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought
the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but
I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you
from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his
remarks about what you have testified:
"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child,
we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told
us he was completely harmless?"
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was
quoting what he said.
Mr. JENNER. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to
Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record
player, that she had gone to New Orleans.
Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than
that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems
it must have been after I was married and I was still living on
Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had
records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for
Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and
what to do with them?
And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember
talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me
and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time
Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me
that, I am not sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming
back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his
job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time I believe----
Mr. JENNER. Was coming back to live or was visiting?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was
coming back here.
Mr. JENNER. Lost his job in New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the
last I heard of them until the event of November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Glover, that has
occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you
think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the
assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I
have questioned you, and--or anything else that you think might help
the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths
with respect to that tragic event?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value
to add.
Mr. JENNER. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may,
if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to
you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of
waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege
of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and
sign it. And you also have the privilege of waiving that right. Do you
have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I
don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a
technicality. Maybe I should ask someone.
Mr. JENNER. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you
wish to, if you prefer--that you read your deposition over it will be
available to you next week, should you so desire.
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I think I would like to read it.
Mr. JENNER. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will
call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript
will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call
them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the
deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections
or additions.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With this I have no further questions. I have only
this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and
inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your
personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing
personal on my part.
Mr. GLOVER. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a
question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what
I know about such a situation.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that is where we are at the moment.
TESTIMONY OF CARLOS BRINGUIER
The testimony of Carlos Bringuier was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Carlos Bringuier, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses,
including you, by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the
Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week, stating that I
would contact you in connection with the taking of your testimony. I
understand that he sent with his letter a copy of the Executive order
and resolution to which I have just referred as well as a copy of
the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of
testimony of witnesses.
Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I received it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you received copies of the documents that I have
referred to?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. I received.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in learning from you, Mr.
Bringuier, about the contact that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald while
he was present in New Orleans in the summer and early fall of 1963.
Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, will you
state your full name for the record.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Carlos Bringuier.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. Bringuier?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me one moment. May I explain to you? In Cuba
we use a long name with a lot of middle names. Do you want the whole
middle name too?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I think that is enough.
Mr. BRINGUIER. It is enough? O.K.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I live in 501 Adele Street, Apartment F.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I was born in Havana, June 22, 1934.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Havana?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was living in Havana until May 4, 1960. I left
Havana to Guatemala and Argentina, and I came to the States in February
8, 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. You came then to New Orleans, is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That day I arrived to Miami, Florida, and I was in Miami
for 10 days, and I came to New Orleans in February 18, 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been here in New Orleans ever since?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Cuban national, is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I am a salesman, retail clothing store with the
name of Casa Roca, 107 Decatur Street. I am a salesman and manager of
the store.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I started to work in that store in October 1, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you been employed here in New Orleans prior to that
time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I was working for 1 year in Ward's Discount
House, 708 Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. You worked there as a salesman also?
Mr. BRINGUIER. As a salesman also.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your educational background?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was attorney in Cuba and assistant secretary for
the criminal court in Havana. I got my degree in 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your degree in what field?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Law.
Mr. LIEBELER. In law?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you then were trained as a lawyer in Cuba----
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Castro came to power? Is that
correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you actually practice law in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Not actually, no. I didn't practice law, because I was
working, as I told you, in the criminal court, and in Havana, in Cuba,
when you was employee of the criminal court, you could not practice law.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become a member of the bar in Cuba or do some
act that is similar of becoming a member of the bar here in the United
States?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I didn't do any act to become here in United States
member of bar.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. In Cuba, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were a member of the bar in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you have been active in the
Anti-Castro Movement here in New Orleans. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you left Cuba because
of your feeling against the Castro regime and your opposition to that
regime?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. I did not believe in it, I did not
agree with the Communist regime in Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a result, you left Cuba and came to the United States?
Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has your family joined you here in the United States?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, when I went to Argentina, I went with my wife and
the three kids at that moment, and after I came to the United States
alone, and 2 months later they met me here in the States. I want to
explain that I am not in the States as a Cuban refugee but as an
immigrant, as a resident.
Mr. LIEBELER. And as an immigrant from Cuba, or from some other----
Mr. BRINGUIER. From Cuba [producing document].
Mr. LIEBELER. You have shown me an identification card from the
Department of Immigration and Naturalization, indicating that you were
admitted to the United States as an immigrant on February 8, 1961. Is
that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
(Document returned to witness.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct in understanding, am I not, that you have
been involved to one degree or another in Anti-Castro activities here
in New Orleans since your arrival?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; soon after I arrived here to New Orleans,
I founded a Newsletter for the Cubans with the name of Crusada.
That was my first work here in New Orleans. After that I joined,
at the beginning of 1962, the New Orleans Delegation of the Cuban
Revolutionary Council, and I was working as Secretary of Publicity and
Propaganda here in New Orleans for the Cuban Anti-Castro. That was,
I believe, June or July--June 1962. After that, I resigned, and in
July 1962 I was designated New Orleans delegate of the Cuban Student
Directorate, and I am in that position from that time to now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when that was and the circumstances of the event.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the first day that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald was on
August 5, 1963, but before we go deeper in this matter about Oswald, I
think that I would like to explain to you two things that I think will
facilitate the Commission to understand my feeling at that moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is perfectly all right. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And you see, in August 24, 1962, my organization,
the Cuban Student Directorate, carry on a shelling of Havana, and
a few days later when person from the FBI contacted me here in New
Orleans--his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking
to me in the Thompson Cafeteria. At that moment I was the only one
from the Cuban Student Directorate here in the city, and he was asking
to me about my activities here in the city, and when I told him that
I was the only one, he didn't believe that, and he advised me--and I
quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are
doing here." My answer to him was, "Well, you will have to infiltrate
myself, because I am the only one." And I want to put this out, because
after the assassination of Mr. Kennedy, when I was interviewed, I told
something that some part of the press or some persons now are trying to
use to tell that maybe Oswald was a man from the FBI or the CIA. I will
go into that later on.
After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting
that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the
FBI, because I already was told by one of the FBI agent that they will
try to infiltrate my organization.
Next thing is this: On August 2, 1963, I receive in my store--I have
over there the office of the delegation too, the visit of two Cubans,
who told me that they had already desert from one Anti-Castro training
camp that was across Lake Pontchartrain here in New Orleans. Until that
moment I did not know nothing about that Anti-Castro training camp
here in the city, and they told me that that Anti-Castro training camp
was a branch of the Christian Democratic Movement--that is another
Anti-Castro organization--and they told me that they had the fear
inside the training camp that there was a Castro agent inside that
training camp.
A few days before, too, the police found here in New Orleans about 1
mile from that training camp a big lot of ammunition and weapons and
all those things, and when Oswald came to me on August 5 I had inside
myself the feeling, well, maybe this is from the FBI, or maybe this is
a Communist, because the FBI already had told me that maybe they will
infiltrate my organization, but that feeling--I only had that feeling
on August 5, because 4 days later I was convinced that Oswald was not
an FBI agent and that he was a Pro-Castro agent.
When I told that to the press after the assassination, I saw in some
magazines that I was not sure if he was an FBI or not, and that is not
the truth, because on August 9, 3 months before the assassination, I
was sure that he was a Pro-Castro and not an FBI. I want to have that
clear.
Mr. LIEBELER. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you
on August 5----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were suspicious of him on two different counts?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator
working for the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de
Brueys had said to you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. A year ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost a year prior to that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were also concerned about the possibility that Oswald
might have been a Communist or a Castro agent of some sort, who was
trying to infiltrate your organization on behalf of that group?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Now that day, on August 5, I was talking
in the store with one young American--the name of him is Philip
Geraci--and 5 minutes later Mr. Oswald came inside the store. He
start to look around, several articles, and he show interest in my
conversation with Geraci. I was explaining to Geraci that our fight
is a fight of Cubans and that he was too young, that if he want to
distribute literature against Castro, I would give him the literature
but not admit him to the fight.
At that moment also he start to agree with I, Oswald start to agree
with my point of view and he show real interest in the fight against
Castro. He told me that he was against Castro and that he was against
communism. He told me--he asked me first for some English literature
against Castro, and I gave him some copies of the Cuban report printed
by the Cuban Student Directorate.
After that, Oswald told me that he had been in the Marine Corps and
that he had training in guerrilla warfare and that he was willing to
train Cubans to fight against Castro. Even more, he told me that he was
willing to go himself to fight against Castro. That was on August 5.
I turned down his offer. I told him that I don't have nothing to do
with military activities, that my only duties here in New Orleans are
propaganda and information and not military activities. That was my
answer to him.
He insisted, and he told me that he will bring to me next day one book
as a present, as a gift to me, to train Cubans to fight against Castro.
Before he left----
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Geraci present throughout this entire conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Geraci present throughout this entire
conversation that you had with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so, yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Mr. Blalock there?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Who?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. Do you remember him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there was another young boy. What was his name did
you say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I could not tell you, because I don't remember the name
of the other boy who was there, but I think that I saw him just one
time in my life. Geraci was with another person over there, another
young boy, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention during this conversation that he could
easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain
around the railroad track? Do you remember him mentioning something
like that?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you see; I do not exactly remember all the
details, because we were talking for about--I believe about 1 hour,
something like that, and at that moment I didn't know what was going to
happen and I didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was
being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this
that I am telling to you. Maybe he mentioned that. I could not tell
to you that he mentioned that, because I am not--I don't remember. He
could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience
that he had in guerrilla warfare in the Marine Corps.
Before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered
me money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he offer you?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I don't know. As soon as he put the hand in the
pocket and he told me, "Well, at least let me contribute to your group
with some money," at that moment I didn't have the permit from the
city hall here in New Orleans to collect money in the city, and I told
him that I could not accept his money, and I told him that if he want
to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the
headquarters in Miami, because they had the authorization over there
in Miami, and I gave him the number of the post office box of the
organization in Miami.
And after that, I left the store, because I had to go to the bank
to make the deposit, and Oswald was in the store talking to my
brother-in-law--that is my partner in the store--Rolando Pelaez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that P-e-l-a-e-z?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Oswald was talking to him for about half
an hour, and later on when I came back from the bank I asked to my
brother-in-law, "Well, what do you think about this guy who was here?"
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you his name was Lee Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; he told me that his name was Lee Oswald, and he
told me one address in Magazine Street, but I didn't remember at
that moment the number, and when I asked to my brother-in-law that,
he told me that Oswald looked like really a smart person and really
interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother
a good impression, and I told my brother that I could not trust him,
because--I didn't know what was inside of me, but I had some feeling
that I could not trust him. I told that to my brother that day. Next
day, on August 6, Oswald came back to the store, but I was not in the
store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a Guidebook
for Marines for me with the name "L. H. Oswald" in the top of the first
page. When I came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the
Guidebook for Marines. I was looking in the Guidebook for Marines. I
found interest in it and I keep it, and later--I forgot about that
just for 3 days more--on August 9 I was coming back to the store at 2
o'clock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of Celso
Hernandez came to me and told me that in Canal Street there was a young
man carrying a sign telling "Viva Fidel" in Spanish, and some other
thing about Cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in English, and the
only thing that he understood was the "Viva Fidel" in Spanish. He told
me that he was blaming the person in Spanish, but that the person maybe
didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let
me know what was going on over there.
At that moment was in the store another Cuban with the name of Miguel
Cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that I have in the store
in color. The sign is the Statue of Liberty with a knife in the back,
and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the Soviet
Union, and it said, "Danger. Only 90 Miles from the United States Cuba
Lies in Chains." We pick up the sign and we went to Canal Street to
find the guy.
We were walking all Canal Street to Rampart Street, but we could not
find him. We were asking to different people in the street, but nobody
saw him, nobody told us, Yes, I saw him, or, He went to this side. I
decided to get a Canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the
Canal streetcar until about the 2700 block of Canal Street, and we came
back in the Canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment.
I went back to the store, but just 3 or 4 minutes later one of my two
friends, Miguel Cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was
another time in Canal Street and that Celso was watching him over there.
I went over there with the sign another time, and I was surprised when
I recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said,
"Viva Fidel" and "Hands off Cuba," was Lee Harvey Oswald. Until that
moment I only knew Oswald as a guy who was offering his service to
train Cubans, and when I saw that he was with a sign defending Fidel
Castro and praising Fidel Castro, I became angry. That was in the 700
block of Canal Street just in front of the store where I was working my
first year here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the International Trade Mart?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; Ward Discount House. He make another appearance in
the International Trade Mart, later, and I will go into that, too.
When I saw that was Oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised,
but just for a few seconds. Immediately he smiled to me and he offered
the hand to shake hands with me. I became more angry and I start to
tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was
doing that, because he had just came to me 4 days ago offering me his
service and that he was a Castro agent, and I start to blame him in the
street.
That was a Friday around 3 o'clock at this moment, and many people
start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. I start
to explain to the people what Oswald did to me, because I wanted to
move the American people against him, not to take the fight for myself
as a Cuban but to move the American people to fight him, and I told
them that that was a Castro agent, that he was a pro-Communist, and
that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in Cuba,
kill them and send their children to the execution wall. Those were my
phrases at the moment.
The people in the street became angry and they started to shout to him,
"Traitor! Communist! Go to Cuba! Kill him!" and some other phrases that
I do not know if I could tell in the record.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean they cursed at him, they swore at him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, some bad phrases, bad words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And at that moment, one of the Americans push him by one
arm. One policeman came. When policeman came to me and asked me to keep
walking and to let Oswald distribute his literature that he was handing
out--he was handing out yellow leaflets of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, New Orleans Chapter--and I told to the policeman that I was
Cuban, I explained to him what Oswald did to me, and I told him that I
don't know if was against the law, but that I will not leave that place
until Oswald left and that I will make some trouble.
The policeman left, I believe going to some place to call the
headquarters, and at one moment my friend Celso took the literature
from Oswald, the yellow sheets, and broke it and threw it on the air.
There were a lot of yellow sheets flying. And I was more angry, and I
went near Oswald to hit him. I took my glasses off and I went near to
him to hit him, but when he sensed my intention, he put his arm down as
an X, like this here (demonstrating).
Mr. LIEBELER. He crossed his arms in front of him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, put his face and told me, "O.K. Carlos,
if you want to hit me, hit me."
At that moment, that made me to reaction that he was trying to appear
as a martyr if I will hit him, and I decide not to hit him, and just a
few seconds later arrive two police cars, and one of the policeman over
there was Lieutenant Gaillot, G-a-i-l-l-o-t. They put Oswald and my two
friends in one of the police cars, and I went with Lieutenant Gaillot
in the other police car to the First District of Police here in New
Orleans.
When we were in the First District of Police, we were in the same room,
one small room over there, and some of the policemen start to question
Oswald if he was a Communist, what he was doing that, and all those
things, and Oswald at that moment--that was in front of myself--was
really cold blood. He was answering the questions that he would like
to answer, and he was not nervous, he was not out of control, he was
confident in himself at that moment over there.
One of the questions that they asked to him was about his organization,
the Fair Play for Cuba, and I saw him showing some papers that--I
believe they were the credentials of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,
that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is a national organization, and
when he told that, he was so kind of proud that it was not a small
group but a national group all over the United States, and they asked
of him the name of the members. No. Excuse me. Before they asked him if
he has any office. He told them no, that there were--they were holding
the meetings in different house, different homes, different members
of the organization one night in one house, another night in another
house, but in front of me he didn't told nothing about any office. When
they asked him about the name of the members, he answered that he could
not tell the name of the members in front of myself, because he will
not like to let me know who were the ones who were helping him here in
the city, and at that moment the police came out of the room and that
was the last time that I saw him that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police keep you in jail too?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, yes. I had to put--they took my fingerprints and
my picture, and I have to put $25 bond that night with my two friends
too, and I don't know, but after the assassination I heard that Oswald
didn't put the $25 bond, that somebody went to the First District and
make--I believe you call that an affidavit or something like that, and
he will appear in court and he will not have to put the $25. He didn't
put the $25 bond. That is what I heard. I didn't saw that. I am not
sure of that. Next time that I saw him----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in court later?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; later. That was August 12.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on Monday.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pleaded not guilty to the offense that you were
charged with?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right; that is right. And he plead guilty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is what you were just about to tell me?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. In August 12, we appear in the second municipal court in
New Orleans. I came first with my friends, and there were some other
Cubans over there, and I saw when Oswald came inside the court. I saw
him. He went directly to sit down in the middle of the seat of the
colored people. See, here in the court you have two sides, one for the
white people and one for the colored people, and he walked directly
inside of the colored people and he sat directly among them in the
middle, and that made me to be angry too, because I saw that he was
trying to win the colored people for his side. When he will appear in
the court, he will defend Fidel Castro, he will defend the Fair Play
for Cuba, and the colored people will feel good for him, and that is a
tremendous work of propaganda for his cause. That is one of the things
that made me to think that he was a really smart guy and not a nut.
When the judge call us, he plead guilty, I plead not guilty, and
my friends plead not guilty. I brought the Marines guidebook, the
guidebook for Marines, and I explain to the judge that the incident was
originated when Oswald tried to infiltrate the organization and that if
he will not do that, I will not have any fight with him in the street,
and I showed to him the guidebook for Marines with the name of Oswald
on the top of the first page, and the judge dismisses the charges
against us and fined him $10.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fined Oswald $10?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ten dollars, that is right. In the court was at that
moment one cameraman from WDSU, and he make--he did an interview to
Oswald after the trial and he took some movies of ourselves, and later
I receive one phone call from Bill Stuckey. I had talk to Stuckey the
day of the trial in the morning. I met him in the bank and I explained
to him what was going on in the second municipal court, and he was the
one who send the reporter over there to the trial. I am not sure if
was the same day or next day of the trial Stuckey called me asking for
Oswald's address. I get the affidavit from the court dissertation, and
I give to him the address in dissertation, and I asked him why he was
looking for that. He told me that he was going to make an interview
to Oswald. I disagreed with him at that moment, I told him that I was
thinking that it was not good to let a Communist go to radio station
and tell all his lies, because there are many people who understand
what was happening in Cuba, but there are many people who do not know
exactly what is happening in Cuba. Stuckey offered me to make another
interview to me next Saturday in his program, but I didn't agree with
that neither, and I asked him to arrange a radio debate, because in
that way we could tell our point of view at the same moment in the same
place.
On August 16 another friend of mine left to me a message in the store
that Oswald was another time handing out pro-Castro propaganda for the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee, this time in front of the International
Trade Mart here in New Orleans.
I wasn't in the store at that moment, and when I came back and I
received the message, I went to the International Trade Mart, but I
could not find Oswald, he had already left, and I was talking later on
with my friend, and the information that I received was that he was
over there with two other persons. Later I saw the picture of those two
persons, and they have a Latin aspect. I do not know if they are Latin
Americans or not, but at least there is one who is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did somebody show you pictures of these individuals?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The Secret Service tried to see if I know them, if I
could identify them.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you a picture,
which has previously been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit 453-A," and I ask
you if that is one of the pictures or a picture like the one the
Secret Service showed to you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you another
picture, which has previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-B."
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] See this guy, see this Japanese? He
is from the Kasuga Co. here in New Orleans. He had the office in
International Trade Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pointed to the person standing immediately behind
and to Oswald's right with his hands up behind his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Demonstrating.] That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is on Exhibit 453-A. Now do you recognize the
person with the "X" over his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there is a person standing to Oswald's left wearing a
white shirt and facing the same direction that Oswald was facing, and
I will indicate that person with a pen mark on the picture. [Marking
photograph.] I have drawn an arrow pointing to the person to which I
refer, and I ask you if you recognize that person.
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't recognize him. I believe that this is one of
the pictures that I saw before, but I don't recognize him. For me, he
looked like as a Latin American.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now in the far foreground of this picture, there is a
man who has been marked with a green mark, just one mark, and we are
referring at this point to Exhibit 453-A. Do you recognize that person?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that another one of the individuals to which you
referred as having a Latin-type complexion, or is it not?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir. I believe--no; this is not the one that I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have one other picture here of this scene which has not
previously been marked, and I will show that picture to you and ask
you if you can identify anybody in that picture with the exception of
Oswald, of course. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.]
Mr. BRINGUIER. The only one that I could recognize here is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he is the person with the "Hands Off Cuba"?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba" leaflets in his hand, the first one in
front, just in the middle of the picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking photograph.] I have marked the picture I just
referred to as "Exhibit No. 1" to your deposition.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Do you want that I sign the picture?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Would you initial the picture for identification
purposes?
(The witness complied.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You want that I sign these too?
Mr. LIEBELER. No. We have identified those as Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and
453-B, and you have noted that they are----
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that there were two different
people that appeared to you to be Latin people.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Sure. This one that I see here [indicating], this is the
one looked like to me a Latin, but, if I am not wrong, somebody showed
me another picture where is another guy distributing the leaflets. I
believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a Secret Service man or an FBI
agent? Do you know?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think that was a Secret Service man. Maybe I am wrong.
I saw those days a lot of pictures; but--let me tell you something
else: If my opinion is not wrong, if I am not mistaken this moment, I
think that the other man was maybe in some kind of Bermuda shorts or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any pictures in my possession showing that.
The Commission has requested the actual film, the TV film itself, to be
delivered to it, and they will examine it, and if such a person does
appear in the films, I will send you a picture of it.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I will also speak to the Secret Service about it and
see if we can find such a picture. According to the Secret Service, one
of these gentlemen has been identified as Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Jr.
Mr. BRINGUIER. He was working in the Pap's Super Market here in New
Orleans. I believe so, that he was working over there. There was one
Cuban who, when saw his face in the television, called me to tell me
that, and I called the Secret Service and let them know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Steele will be in the office here this afternoon, so
we will have an opportunity to determine if it is the same man that was
marked with the arrow in Pizzo Exhibit 453-A or not.
So you went over to the International Trade Mart on this day in an
attempt to find Oswald, but you were not successful? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. After that my friend showed to me
one of the leaflets that Oswald was handing out in front of the
International Trade Mart, the yellow leaflets, and I found something
interesting at this point. There was a difference among the leaflets
that he was handing out on August 16 in the International Trade Mart
and the leaflets that he was handing out on Canal Street on August 9.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The leaflet he was handing out on Canal Street August 9
didn't have his name of Oswald, at least the ones that I saw. They have
the name A. J. Hidell, and one post office box here in New Orleans and
the address, and the leaflets that he was handing out on August 16 have
the name L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Street. In the yellow leaflets
he was offering free literature and lectures, and he was asking to
the people to join the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, and at the end he said, "Everyone welcome." My friend asked
to me if I think that it would be good that he will go to Oswald's
house posing as a pro-Castro and try to get as much information as
possible from Oswald. I told him yes; and that night he went to
Oswald's house with the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day was this now? Do you remember?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 16. I believe so. I think that. I am sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the same day that----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That he was distributing the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. The second time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The second time. The first time was a Friday, August 9,
and the second time--I think that was another Friday, August 16.
My friend went to Oswald's house and he was talking to Oswald for about
1 hour inside his house, in the porch of the house, and there was when
we found that Oswald had some connection with Russia, or something like
that, because the daughter came to the porch and Oswald spoke to her
in Russian, and my friend heard that language and he asked Oswald if
that was Russian, and Oswald told him yes, that he was attending Tulane
University and that he was studying language, that that was the reason
why he speak Russian. He give to my friend an application to become a
member of the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
After the assassination my friend turned [over] to the Secret Service
one copy of the application. I have here one, one copy [producing
document]. This is a photocopy. My friend keep the original.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; that is the only one that I have. He has the
original. If you want to keep that, for me it is no trouble, because
always I could take more copies.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Your friend still has the original?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The original; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's mark this one as "Exhibit 2" to your
deposition. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we asked Mr. Bringuier to
initial a picture which we discussed before on the record, and
that picture, which is a picture of a street scene in front of
the International Trade Mart has been marked "Exhibit 1" to Mr.
Bringuier's deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964. We
shall now mark as "Exhibit 2" to that deposition a photocopy of an
application to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans, La.,
which Mr. Bringuier says is a copy of an application which was given
to a friend of his whose name we have agreed not to indicate on the
record, given by Lee Oswald on or about August 16, 1963. Is that
correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 2 and I ask you to do the
same, if you would.
[The witness complied.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Please go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. At that conversation Oswald was defending Fidel Castro,
and he advised to my friend that the United States don't have the right
to invade or to overthrow any other government, and that if the United
States will do that to Cuba, he will fight defending Castro, because
Castro was right.
I gave the copy of the transcription of the conversation with my friend
to the Secret Service the days after the Kennedy assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the day that you and your friend discussed this
after your friend returned from Oswald's and you made a recording of
that conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Not a recording, not a recording exactly; but when my
friend came back from Oswald's house, he told me what happened over
there and he was trying to contact some authority to let him go deeper
inside the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; my friend was trying to contact some authorities,
because he didn't want to be involved in that matter without the
knowledge of the U.S. Government. We also discussed this conversation
in front of Ed Butler.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ed Butler, Edward Butler, for the Information Council of
the Americas, the day or 2 days previous to the debate when my friend
and myself went to Butler's office, and my friend was explaining to
Butler all the conversation and the point of view of Oswald, and the
matter that Oswald spoke in Russian, and at that moment my friend
had found that Oswald had been in Russia and that he was married to
one Russian girl. We gave all that information to Butler and he was
trying to contact some person, somebody in Washington, to get more the
background of Oswald before the debate.
After that, the last day that I saw Oswald was August 21, the day of
the debate. I went to WDSU radio about 5:30, 30 minutes before the time
of the debate. When I went to the lobby, there were already there--Bill
Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald. I shake hands with Stuckey. Stuckey
indicate to me that Oswald was there. Oswald stand up and came to me
and shake hands with me. I was talking to Stuckey for a few minutes,
and after that Stuckey left the lobby and went inside the WDSU radio
station to check--I believe that was to check in what room we will have
the debate. I was talking to Oswald that day before the debate started.
I was trying to be as friendly to him as I could. I really believe
that the best thing that I could do is to get one Communist out of the
Communist Party and put him to work against communism, because he know
what communism mean, and I told to Oswald that I don't have nothing
against him in the personal way, just in the ideologic way. I told him
that for me it was impossible to see one American being a Communist,
because communism is trying to destroy the United States, and that if
any moment when he will be at bed he will start to think that he can
do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself, he
could come to me, because I would receive him, because I repeat to him
I didn't have nothing against him in the personal way. He smiled to me.
He told me--he answered me that he was in the right side, the correct
side, and that I was in the wrong side, and that he was doing his best.
That were his words at that moment.
Before we went inside the room of the debate, he saw my guidebook for
Marines that I was carrying with me, because I did not know what will
happen in the debate and I will have to have that weapon with me to
destroy him personally as a traitor if he doing something wrong in the
debate. When he saw the guidebook for Marines, he smiled to me, and he
told me, "Well, listen, Carlos, don't try to do an invasion with that
guidebook for Marines, because that is an old one and that will be a
failure." That was his joke in that moment.
After that we went to the debate, and I think that you have the whole
history of the debate, you have the transcription and everything, [so]
that I don't have to go inside that, because that is subjective, not
objective. You have the objective, and that is the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. We do have a transcript and we listened to
it on the tape last night over at the television station too.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And there is something that I want to show you too.
I told to you about the training camp that were across the Lake
Pontchartrain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Producing newspaper.] At the beginning of August in the
Diario Las Americas from Miami for September 4----
Mr. LIEBELER. For September 4, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. [Indicating photograph.] This is the spy
who was inside the training camp. The Christian Democratic Movement
turned him over to the FBI, and the FBI was questioning him in Miami.
The Christian Democratic Movement found a letter, according to this
information, from this guy directed to Carlos Lechuga, former Cuban
Ambassador to Mexico and now Cuban Ambassador to the United Nations
in New York. In that letter the spy, Fernando Fernandez, was warning
Lechuga that they have to be alert from that date to August 8, and the
day that Oswald came trying to infiltrate my organization was on August
5. This sounds for me strange in all this matter.
[Indicating.] Here is another interview from Fernandez here 3 days
later.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a copy of the same newspaper but for
the date of September 6, 1963, on the front page of which----
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] Here. "Fernando Fernandez is in favor of
coexistence with the Communist regime of Castro." That is the title in
Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. You
say that Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga in Mexico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lechuga is a member of the Castro government?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is now Ambassador to the United Nations?
Mr. BRINGUIER. In New York; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fernandez is the person who was the Castro spy who had
infiltrated the training camp in Louisiana?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For the Christian Democratic Movement here in Louisiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the Christian Democratic Movement is--what?
Pro-Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Anti-Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is an anti-Castro organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; they were training Cubans over here to make a
commando action against Castro, but they find out that there was a
Castro spy inside the training camp, and they went back to Miami with
the people and with him, and they turn him over to the FBI. I think
that after that the leader for the Christian Democratic Movement--or
that the FBI didn't found nothing, because was not against the law
to spy inside an anti-Castro organization. It was against the law
to spy inside the U.S. Government but not inside the anti-Castro
organization. And my feeling--and this is the question that I am asking
myself--in New Orleans we are about 900 miles from Miami. In Miami
is where the headquarters of all the anti-Castro groups. I could not
find any reason for Oswald to come to me and offer me his service to
train Cubans in guerrilla warfare at the same moment when there was a
secret anti-Castro training camp in New Orleans and a Castro spy was
inside that training camp. That for me is--because, if he was willing
to infiltrate one active organization, he will go directly to Miami
and he will offer his service over there in Miami, but not in New
Orleans where it is not publicly known that there was something going
on at that moment. I believe that that was the only time here in New
Orleans that there was something like that, and it was a coincidence.
And there is another coincidence too for me, and that is that when
Oswald left the city he went to Mexico, and the letter from Fernandez
that was intercepted here was to Mexico too, and Oswald visit the
Cuban consulate in Mexico, and the Fernandez letter was to the Cuban
Ambassador to Mexico. For me, that is a big doubt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, after the debate, the same night of the debate,
I went to the radio station here in New Orleans and the local papers
and the United Press International office, and I gave a press release.
If you want a copy, I could give you a copy. I gave a copy to the
Secret Service.
The most interesting thing is the four things that I asked to the
Secret Service of New Orleans. I think that this is the second
one where I said, "Write to your Congressman asking for a full
investigation of Mr. Lee H. Oswald, a confessed Marxist" [producing
document]. And that was 3 months before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I have the original of that. You can have that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked a copy of the press release distributed to
the various communications media here in New Orleans, on August 16,
1963----
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, August 21.
Mr. LIEBELER. August 21, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 21, the night of the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. I mark it as "Exhibit No. 3" to your deposition, and I
have initialed it. Would you initial it?
[The witness complied.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go over some of this testimony that you have just
given to see if I understand. Mr. Fernandez wrote to Mr. Lechuga a
letter in which Fernandez said that we--meaning the Castro people?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Must be on guard up until August 8?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 8, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that Oswald had come to your store or
offices on August 5, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald came to you offering to assist in the military
training of Cubans?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, there was, in fact, a training camp near
New Orleans----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. For the training of people for military action against
Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was not public knowledge at that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are tying this up in your mind by considering the
possibility that Oswald was, in fact, a Castro agent?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did know about the existence of this training camp,
because Mr. Fernandez had already himself infiltrated that training
camp?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that Fernandez had told Oswald about the existence of
this camp and had asked Oswald himself to try to infiltrate that camp
for your organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the only thing that I don't believe is that
Fernandez had told directly to Oswald. What I believe is that Fernandez
had informed some people outside the United States, and these people
had informed Oswald and had gave to Oswald the order to try to
infiltrate the Cuban group here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Fernandez was, on this theory, aware of that and
was aware of approximately the time Oswald would make this attempt,
and, therefore, indicated to Lechuga that there would be some danger of
Oswald being discovered as an attempted infiltrator?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg pardon? I don't understand the words.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand, part of the hypothesis here, the theory,
relates to the fact that Fernandez said to Lechuga, "We must be
careful, or we will be in danger,"--up until about August 8. Now does
that statement have anything to do with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, what I think is this: He send that letter to
Lechuga, and on August 5 Oswald came to me offering his service to
train Cubans, all in the same period of time. Something that never was
happening here in New Orleans, that there was a secret anti-Castro
training camp, and the chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
trying to join the Cuban group here in New Orleans. Those are the
facts. I don't want to tell something that I am not sure about. I just
want to show you that tremendous coincidence or that connection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now it doesn't seem likely, does it, that Oswald would
go around handing out literature in the streets like he did if he was
actually attempting to infiltrate the anti-Castro movement?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Remember that that was after I turned down his offer
and after I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military
activities and that here there is nothing, and that I turned down
completely him. He didn't went openly to do that before the attempt to
infiltrate the training camp; he went openly to do that after he was
turned down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conceivable association between
anybody in the pro-Castro movement and Oswald that could have acted as
a source of information to Oswald--conducted the orders to him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have any way of obtaining information of that
sort as a result of your anti-Castro activities and contacts? If there
were such a person as this, do you think you would be likely to know
about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. If there were such a person, that is to say, some agent
of the Castro movement who had been working with Oswald, do you think
that you would have had access to that information or you would have
been likely to find out about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, that is a hard question, because here in the
city you have a lot of persons. There are some who are pro-Castro,
there are many who are anti-Castro. Even among the Cubans you could
have some Castro agents here in the city and you could not have control
of everybody.
But there is something else: The owner of the Havana Bar--the Havana
Bar is located in 117 Decatur Street, just two door or three door from
my store--the owner of the Havana Bar is a Cuban, and he and one of
the employees over there, gave the information to me after Kennedy's
assassination--not before--that Oswald went to the Havana Bar one time.
He asked for some lemonade. He was with one Mexican at that moment,
and when Oswald was drinking the lemonade, he start to say that, sure,
the owner of that place had to be a Cuban capitalistic, and that he
argue about the price of the lemonade. He was telling that that was
too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, Oswald feel
bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk
to vomit outside on the sidewalk. These persons here from the Havana
Bar told me that the guy, the Mexican, who was with Oswald, was the
same one that one time the FBI told them that if they will see him,
call them immediately because that was a pro-Communist. I remember
that was between August 15 and August 30 was that period of time. I
could not locate that because I start to find out all these things
after the Kennedy assassination, not before, because before I did not
found any connection. They did not told nothing of this before to me.
Between the 15th and the 30th the brother of the owner of the Havana
Bar came to my store asking me to call the FBI, because he already saw
one automobile passing by the street with two Mexicans, one of them the
one who had been with Oswald in the bar, and he told me that the FBI,
one agent from the FBI, had been in the bar and told them that if they
will see those two guy to call them. This person, the brother of the
owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate
of the automobile, but he didn't get from what State. I called the FBI,
because this person don't know to speak English. That was the reason
why he came to me. I talked to the person in the FBI. I explained what
was going on, but looked like this person on the telephone didn't know
nothing about that matter and he took the--I believe that he took the
notes of what I was telling to him, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen, before the assassination or after?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I called before the assassination, but I didn't know
that that was any connection with Oswald, because they didn't told me
at the Havana Bar that one of them was the one that was with Oswald in
the Havana Bar, and even more they didn't told me Oswald had been in
the Havana Bar. After I learn that Oswald was one day over there with
one Mexican, the brother of the owner told me, "Yes. You remember those
two Mexicans? One of them was the one who was with Oswald in the bar."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell me approximately when you called the FBI about
this.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, that was between the 15th of August and the 30th
of August, because that was when the owner of the Havana Bar was on
vacation. The brother was the one who was at the front of the business
at that moment, and we figure that the owner of the Havana Bar went on
vacation from August 15 to August 30 and that had to happen in that
period of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, some time between August 15 and
August 30 the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told you that he
had seen a man that had been formerly identified to him by the FBI, and
the FBI had asked this man, the brother of the owner of the bar, to
notify them if he saw this man?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had seen this man together with another man
driving in an automobile somewhere here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. But the question is this: The FBI was according to the
information that the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told me,
the FBI was looking for both men, not for one.
Mr. LIEBELER. For both of them?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For both of them, but just one of them was in the Havana
Bar with Oswald, not both.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the brother of the owner of the
Havana Bar?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ruperto Peña, and the one who saw Oswald in the
bar--that was the one who served the lemonade to him--Evaristo
Rodriguez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you report this to the FBI when you talked to them
after the assassination?
Mr. BRINGUIER. After the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I report this to the Secret Service. I believe so.
[Producing document.] I have here a copy of the letter that I send
to the headquarters on November 27, 1963, informing here to the
headquarters the information that I gave to the Secret Service about
the man who was working in the Pap's Supermarket, that he was going to
Delgado Trades School, I believe with the name of Charles, and I have
here that I gave to the Secret Service this information during that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. May I see that?
[Document exhibited to counsel.]
Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Spanish?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. You have given me a draft of a document entitled "Open
Letter to People of New Orleans," which I have marked "Exhibit No. 4"
to your deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964, and I
have initialed it in the lower right hand corner. Would you initial it,
please?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Complying.] And you agree to send me back the original?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I will take this and have a copy made, and I will
send the original back to you. I have your address on my copy here of
Mr. Rankin's letter, which is 107 Decatur Street, New Orleans, La. Is
that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. That is my store. You can send the mail
to there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Correct. Now "Exhibit No. 4," as I understand it, is a
draft of a letter that you proposed to distribute here in New Orleans
some time after the debate that you had with Oswald on August 21, 1963.
Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. It, in fact, was never distributed because you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. I went to the city hall, and they informed me--I think
the person that informed me--maybe I am wrong--is Mr. Diboll--I had
that name here wrote on the back--and he gave to me the information
that it had to be 3-1/2 by 5-1/2 and this was not possible to
distribute in that size, and I decided not to distribute.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you prepared this some time during August in 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was done prior to the assassination?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Do you have any information from Oswald
going to Cuba?
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean--has it ever appeared that Oswald actually went
to Cuba? Not as far as I know.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well [producing magazine], there is here in this
magazine--this is Bohemia International--this is printed in
Venezuela--February 2, 1964--there is an article by Dr. Herminio
Portell-Vila. He is a professor of history of Cuba, Dr. Herminio
Portell-Vila, and an old diplomat from Cuba. I think he is living in
Washington, D.C. And he said here [exhibiting page] that in one speech
from Castro on November 27, 1963, in the University of Havana, Castro
said--and I quote: "The first time that Oswald was in Cuba"--and that
immediately he cut the speech, he changed and he talked of something
else. Maybe you have a record of that speech delivered from Castro in
the University of Havana and you could check if Castro said that 5 days
after the assassination or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what kind of magazine is this Bohemia International?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Bohemia was the biggest weekly magazine in Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the Castro regime?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. And during the Castro regime they were
defending Castro a lot of time, but in 1960 the director, the editor,
went into exile, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. And he now publishes this magazine from Venezuela?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. He was publishing that from New York
about one year, I believe, sir, and then at a later date moved to
Venezuela, but that is circulating here inside the United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to an issue of that magazine of
February 2, 1964, and to an article that begins on page 16. What is the
title of the article?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Disfraz. That is mask, costume. That says "change of----
Mr. LIEBELER. Change of costume?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this is an article about Lee Oswald and the Fair Play
for Cuba Committee. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the caption under the picture of Lee Oswald, as it
appears on page 17, reads what in English? Would you translate that for
us?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "When Castro in his speech of November 27, 1963, at the
University of Havana said literally that 'the first time that Oswald
was in Cuba,' he went out of his tongue, that is literally, under the
influence of cognac--Peralta, that is a brand of cognac--'he told
something that is really important.'"
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what it says?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is what it says here, and if you want to take the
name of the person who wrote it----
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The article was written by----
Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know if you have a copy of----
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to put that on the record, that story you
told me just a minute ago?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Last January I went to Miami, Fla., where I was
talking to Dr. Emilio Nunez-Portuondo, former Cuban Ambassador to the
United Nations, and he told me that just after the assassination of
President Kennedy he received a request from one of the biggest Mexican
newspapers asking him for some public declarations of opinion about
the assassination. He sent that day a letter with his press release
inside, addressed to one friend of him who is living in Mexico City and
his friend deliver that press release to the Mexico City newspaper in
Mexico. In that release, Mr. Nunez-Portuondo blamed Fidel Castro as the
"intellectual murderer of President Kennedy."
Dr. Portuondo told me that the same day that that information appear
in the paper, his friend suffer an attempt to be kidnaped. There went
about eight men to this man house, and when they were trying to put him
inside one automobile, at the same moment pass a reporter--I believe
that was from the AP--and when the reporter saw what was going on,
he start to ask for help. At that moment the police came and started
to question the eight men, and, according to Nunez-Portuondo, they
identified themselves as members of the Secret Service of the Mexican
Government, and Mr. Portuondo's friend was beaten so hard that he had
to go to a hospital for 4 days with a broken leg, just because he
was the one who deliver Nunez-Portuondo's statement to the Mexican
newspaper blaming Fidel Castro for the murder of President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go back briefly to the letter from Fernandez to
Lechuga which you indicated had been intercepted.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What letter is this and who intercepted it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I believe that that letter was intercepted here in
New Orleans when Fernandez was sending the letter to Mexico. I didn't
have too much contact with that deal, because that was for another
organization, not my organization, and I didn't want to be involved, in
that that maybe was against the law. I always try to be out of----
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean this letter was intercepted by some other Cuban
organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; for the same organization who had the training camp.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was intercepted while it was in the U.S. mails?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so. I think that he gave that letter to somebody
to drop in the mail, and that somebody that was suspicious about him,
they opened the letter and they found what the letter was telling. I
don't know what they do with the letter. I don't know nothing else. I
know about what is said in the paper. I know that they dismantle all
the training camp here in New Orleans. They went back to Miami. I paid
the trip for two of them to go back to Miami. Excuse me. I did not pay
the trip, I collect some monies among some Cubans, and we paid the
trip. I don't want to set something on the record that is not----
Mr. LIEBELER. Does it say something about the letter in these newspaper
stories that you have referred me to?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Does it refer to the letter in these newspaper stories?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, is covering the whole history about it
[producing newspaper].
Mr. LIEBELER. These newspaper stories are, as we have indicated, in
the Diario Las Americas, issues of September 4, 1963, and September 6,
1963. Do you have copies of these or do you want to keep these?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think they are the only ones we have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I will tell something else to you: This
information--they are taking this information from the Miami Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring now----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That was the one who interview Fernando Fernandez, the
Miami Herald made an interview to Fernando Fernandez. I already asked
to some person in Miami to send me the Miami Herald, from September 3
to September 10 to try to get all the information directly from the
Miami Herald but at this moment I only have the Spanish publication
over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Fernandez is now?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't know where he is. He was telling in that
interview that he was willing to go to Cuba, to go back to Cuba. I
don't know whether he is in Cuba now or not. Excuse me. Did you check
any other trip from Oswald to Mexico previously to the trip 3 weeks
before the assassination? Because I think that you have to know sure
that Mr. Stuckey, Bill Stuckey, made another interview to Oswald, and
he had the tape of that interview. I have one tape of that interview.
I think that that interview was made on August 17, 1963, and at that
interview Oswald said, answering to one question, that he had been in
Mexico, and in all the magazines that I am reading they are talking
about Oswald was born in New Orleans, he went to New York, he came
back to New Orleans, he went to the Marines, he went to Russia, he
came back, he he went to Dallas, he came to New Orleans back, he went
to Mexico 3 weeks before the assassination, but I don't read in any
newspaper or any magazine talking about some other trip from Oswald to
Mexico, and if you have that tape, in Oswald's own voice, he admitted
that he had been to Mexico before August 17.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, Mr. Stuckey will be here this afternoon. We will
ask him about that.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back briefly to this story of Mr. Peña telling you
that he had seen Oswald in the Havana Bar with this other Mexican, did
the FBI ever talk to Mr. Peña about this? Do you know?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know. I know that the owner of the Havana Bar,
in my opinion, is a good person, but he says that always when he talk
to the FBI in the bar or something like that, that he lose customers,
because, you see, to those bars sometime there are people, customers,
who don't like to see FBI around there, and he says that always he lose
customers when the FBI start to go over there, and sometime he become
angry and sometime he don't want to talk about. I am sure that the
brother, Ruperto--I am sure that he will tell everything that he knows.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to whether the report that
Ruperto made about Oswald being in the bar was an accurate report?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the question is this: Was not only Ruperto told
me that Oswald went to Havana Bar. The one who told me that was
Evaristo Rodriguez, and I never saw Evaristo Rodriguez telling lies or
never--Evaristo is quiet person, he is young, married, but he is quiet.
He is not an extrovert, that is, not a----
Mr. LIEBELER. He wouldn't be likely to make this story up?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't believe so.
(At this point, Mr. Jenner entered the room to obtain photographs, and
there ensued an off the record discussion about the photographs.)
Mr. BRINGUIER. I remember that when somebody--I believe that was the
Secret Service--showed to me the other picture that I tell you, that
they were--they had already identified one and they were trying to
identify the other one. I am sure that there were two, and no doubt
about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't recognize any of the----
Mr. BRINGUIER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Individuals in the pictures that we showed you
previously, Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B, and Exhibit No. 1 to your
own deposition?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. The only person you recognized in those pictures was Lee
Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right, and the guy I showed you,
the one from Kasuga, the Japanese.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] Now I show you
Exhibit No. 1 to the affidavit of Jesse Garner, and I ask you if you
recognize the individual in that picture.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And who is that?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the picture look like that is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it shows him handing out a leaflet?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba."
Mr. LIEBELER. Reading off "Hands Off Cuba," does it not? Does that
leaflet look similar to the leaflet you saw Oswald handing out?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognize that man obviously as Oswald, don't you?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point,
but if you have anything else that you want to add, why, you can go
right ahead and do it. You have done most of the testifying without my
help and you have done very well.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you. I don't know if you had already the
information that the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in Miami
gave to the press on January 31 about Jack Ruby's second trip to Cuba
in 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with it offhand. What is it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you could check the name and the date of the
newspaper. It is the same "Diario Las Americas" from Miami, February 1,
1964, information from the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in
Miami telling that Jack Ruby went to Cuba at the end of 1962 through
Mexico, and he was in Cuba until the beginning of 1963. After that I
talked to them by long-distance telephone, long-distance call, and they
informed me that they already have turned over to the FBI all the proof
about this trip from Ruby going to Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the person that you spoke to in Miami?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The person to whom I spoke in Miami, his name is Joaquin
Martinez de Pinillos.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he indicated that the information concerning Ruby's
trip had already been given to the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. To the FBI. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think we should
know about at this moment?
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Back on the record. Going back briefly to the time at
which you and Oswald and your other friends were arrested and taken
to the police station here in New Orleans on August 9, 1963, were you
interviewed at the police station by any agent of the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there were two plain-clothing agents that
identified (themselves) as a member of the FBI, I believe, and they
were questioning us on the generalities of Oswald and all, and when
I was explaining to them and all, they had some kind of confusion
sometime because they didn't know if we were Communists, and I had to
explain to them three or four times that we were not the Communists and
that Oswald was the one that was doing that in favor of Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they interviewed Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think. I thought that they interviewed Oswald, but not
in front of me. They were talking to him in front of me, but when they
were ready to interview Oswald, they moved to other place to interview
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had to point out to them several times that it was
Oswald who was the Castro provocateur, so to say, and not you? Is that
correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; because they were asking to us in one way
as
Showing first 200,000 characters. Full text: gutenberg.org/ebooks/44010