Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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Language: English
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (09 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. IX (OF 15) ***
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ IX
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX:
Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen,
Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis,
Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne
De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service;
Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Paul M. Raigorodsky 1
Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) 27
Thomas M. Ray 38
Samuel B. Ballen 45
Lydia Dymitruk 60
Gary E. Taylor 73
Ilya A. Mamantov 102
Dorothy Gravitis 131
Paul Roderick Gregory 141
Helen Leslie 160
George S. De Mohrenschildt 166
Jeanne De Mohrenschildt 285
Ruth Hyde Paine 331, 426
John Joe Howlett 425
Michael R. Paine 434
Raymond Franklin Krystinik 461
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Commission Exhibit No. 364 93
De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.:
1 277
2 278
3 279
4 279
5 279
6 279
7 279
8 279
9 279
10 279
11 279
12 282
13 282
14 282
15 282
16 26
Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.:
1 437
2 441
Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.:
270 408
271 408
272 411
273 411
274 411
275 424
276 424
277 426
277-A 429
277-B 430
278 432
278-A 432
461 347
469 390
Raigorodsky Exhibit No.:
9 25
10 25
10-A 25
10-B 25
11 26
11-A 26
14 26
14-A 26
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY
The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March
31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are
about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is
in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides
in Dallas.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Stoneleigh Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Who resides at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas.
Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the
Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is
the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving
on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the
attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective
investigations.
The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the
U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson
by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The
Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of
depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the
assassination of President Kennedy.
We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted
with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you
are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to
have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think
you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using
the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of
Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I
understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.
Mr. JENNER. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us
in that regard?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us
your general background, just give us your general background--when you
came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. My background?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, commencing--I don't know where to start, please?
Mr. JENNER. Well, where were you born?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was,
oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to
the university there.
Mr. JENNER. You did what, sir?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I went to the university there and I am escaping from
Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and
then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross
and the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920.
Mr. JENNER. 1940?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1920.
Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sixty-five--exactly.
May I have this not on the record?
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I came to this country.
Mr. JENNER. In 1920?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they
advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United
States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air
Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received
an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of
war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to
this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't
been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and
graduated in 1924.
Mr. JENNER. What degree?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even
though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in
different subjects.
By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds,
and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat.
And, that was in 1924--then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I
simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret
McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank--a Governor or
whatever you call it.
Mr. JENNER. Federal Reserve Bank?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918--he was
appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then,
I stayed in California for some--from 1924 until more or less--until
1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a Dallas concern?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; that was a California concern, specializing in
the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for
Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.--just,
that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another,
getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton
Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that
time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction
engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we
organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and
we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to
Dallas because our business was good--I was sent to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Your business was growing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized
an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the
Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened
an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of
plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third
in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum
Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just
now--it is inoperative.
Then, I continued to--I opened an office in Houston and continued
to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum
Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and
in the United States--lots of them--even in Russia, though I never
went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were
supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you
know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I had an order
from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this
should be off the record?
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let's see, now, Pearl Harbor was in 1939?
Mr. JENNER. 1941; December of 1941.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1941?
Mr. DAVIS. 1941.
Mr. JENNER. December 8th.
Mr. DAVIS. The war started in 1939.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Poland in September 1939.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Already then we had the War Production Board, though
to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board,
but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was
it? Probably 1941--before the war.
Mr. JENNER. Before the war with Japan, you mean?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Before Pearl Harbor.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the
Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the
United States, which I did, and then I had to open--I worked under
DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five
offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston
and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got
ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I
resigned and came back to my business.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By
the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants
for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline
products, and the first plant was built in 1936--the Glen Rose Gasoline
Co. The second one was built in 1943--the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then,
I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my
back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me
there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't
speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me
to Dallas.
That's very interesting what I am going to tell you--in an ambulance
from Houston--and there was a Dr. Paul Williams--he told me that
without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to
Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I
moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people
that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they
had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and
barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever
since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952--in 1952 I was asked
by--you know General Anderson, by any chance?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was what we call--there was an organization in
Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an
Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a
Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe
and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the
production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO
countries.
I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along
all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew
me--they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By
the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card.
(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)
I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't
return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and
I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I
came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to
different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti,
Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in Jamaica together with some
other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l
[spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all.
My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't
retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has
nothing to do with the----
Mr. JENNER. With the Longshoremen?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off
the record now.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record.)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the
second marriage. Then, I have another daughter--maybe you know my
son-in-law, Howard Norris?
Mr. DAVIS. Where is he--in Washington?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Howard Lee Norris, he graduated, I think, in 1951 or
1952.
Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so. What business is he in?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Lawyer of the University of Texas.
Mr. DAVIS. No, I don't think so.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am very proud of that. That's my child.
(At this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to Counsel
Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. This is your daughter on the left?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. And, I will answer anything else you want to now.
Mr. JENNER. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened
to your splendid career, I assume that--and if this assumption is
wrong, please correct me--that the people of Russian descent who came
into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance,
that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest
in those people in the community and that in any event you became
acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this
general area--in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Louise, will you get me my church file?
(Addressing his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek.)
Mr. JENNER. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in
general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in
here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of
Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought
I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the
Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with
them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you
to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what
your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people
coming--like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community?
Let's not make it Marina Oswald--I don't want to get into a specific,
but let's take a hypothetical couple?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the
many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas.
There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities
in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship,
acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but
with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation--you
are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund?
Mr. JENNER. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader
may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the
Tolstoy Foundation.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our
great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came
to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes
care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be.
They process them, which means that they know all about them before
they come into here through their own organization or your different
organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States--you have
a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that
want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to
the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to
place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country
but--I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation--but also
in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United
States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy
Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked,
rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean,
that's the No. 1 stamp.
Mr. JENNER. That's the No. 1 stamp of an approval or of their
genuineness?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of approval--in fact, the U.S. Government recognized
that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy
Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work.
Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in
through acquaintanceship--most of them.
Mr. JENNER. They come because of prior acquaintanceship?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. With some.
Mr. JENNER. With some people who are here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--correspondence you see. Like we have
in Houston--we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know,
Yugoslavia--the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia
and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian
colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled
in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and
lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel.
Mr. JENNER. They followed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear
from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy
Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here.
They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where
you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, let's have this on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, because of my--I always believe that even though
I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the
only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this
country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church
in Texas--at Galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the
Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out,
whether they were one side of the fence or the other.
Mr. JENNER. One side of what fence or the other?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only fence I know of is between the
communism and the anticommunism.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You are on the anticommunistic side of the fence?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh; of course.
Mr. JENNER. I want that to appear on record is why I asked.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe
in 1949 or thereabouts--I have donated quite a bit of money to the
Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they
would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest
of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church
there, which they did.
Mr. JENNER. What religion is that--the name of the church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Russian--Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern
Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two
main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed
is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have
our own Patriarch at the head of our own church.
Mr. JENNER. In Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, no, no; we have in New York--it's Metropolitan
Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the pastor over in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I will come to that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, when we got to--when I came to Dallas we had
Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an
American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me
because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You must be acquainted with Father Royster?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about
the church here----
Mr. JENNER. The full name is Dimitri Robert Royster--go right ahead.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives
us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here
between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists
or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the
Guard.
Mr. JENNER. The original church that you helped organize, that is
referred to as the Old Guard?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we
both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them.
Mr. JENNER. You were the head of both churches?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong
to three churches.
Mr. JENNER. They are different parishes in the same church, aren't they?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like
to explain to you--you see, in this country--I'm quite sure you know--I
don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell
you about?
Mr. JENNER. I am primarily interested in this--from the depositions I
have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the
immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by
refugees who come here is through the church.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another
one--George Bouhe's folks.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name
of that one--what is that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's St. Nicholas.
Mr. JENNER. That's the St. Nicholas Church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I'm head of that one.
Mr. JENNER. You are head of that one?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you say it is a third one?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, it is not a third one here--just the two. Now you
see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again,
leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for
Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians,
Sicilians, or Lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for
the same religion even though their services in their own churches is
in their own language, but here they are all in the English language
because of Father Royster's.
Mr. JENNER. Father Royster preaches the sermons in English?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he
was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this
church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them--that
means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in
fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which Father Royster
organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between
Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it----
Mr. JENNER. St. Nicholas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas--so that Father Royster belongs to
Metropolitan Leonty--Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you
may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan
Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the
revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it.
Metropolitan Anastasia is the head of the Russians outside of Russia,
because he is--whether he escaped Russia like all of us--therefore,
all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that
church.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned
it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about
each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the
Bolsheviks--all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old
anti-Communist group--period.
Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because
nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there
except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought
against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston,
the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought
against communism and even though we came through different grounds,
some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so
we have a church over there.
Now, I personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is
my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't
make any difference to me--I tried to get them together and I didn't
succeed in that town. In Houston--I think that is because it is only
one church--it is more successful.
Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father
Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this
is hearsay--that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the
name of Clark.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I mean, that's all hearsay--I do not know it for a
fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very
close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and
lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my
understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends--again, this
is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they
don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding.
And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not
many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them
groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her
fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable.
Mr. JENNER. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal
sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches
that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well
acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each
other. They seek to help?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or
otherwise?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Those of Russian or Serbian or Central European derivation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. About when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise
of----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That that happened that way?
Mr. JENNER. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your
attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their
names--I never saw them before the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--had you heard of the Oswald name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, never had.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those
things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have
yearly meetings.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say yearly?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Once a year--we meet to elect officers. We meet once a
year to elect the officers.
Mr. JENNER. Is this true of both St. Nicholas and St. Seraphim?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend
to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now,
because, first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us
will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St.
Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there
are one or two of us left--it would be fine. You see, how we are at St.
Nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to
have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now
Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So,
our priest from Galveston comes up.
Mr. JENNER. Comes up here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And I personally don't like him--so I wouldn't go to
the services in my own church on his account.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our
people from our Synod, you know.
Mr. JENNER. The Synod, S-y-n-o-d (spelling)?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who
will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but
the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any
better. We have about 10 families, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. When you say different--you mean here in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Dallas--yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the priest who comes up from Galveston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Let me see--maybe I have it here.
(Examining file.)
Maybe he's not from Galveston--he comes from Houston, but he's the one
that was, you know,--can this be off the record--I just throw those
notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at
this point.)
Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet
document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information
Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have
perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding
the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at
its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through
the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other
parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have
this statement in the record, and will you please copy it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have that--I have a photostat of it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to copy it in the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St.
Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church."
In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev.
Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox
Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster,
a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster)
sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language
Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically
that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the
organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas
Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston
was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the
Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral.
Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that
would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission.
Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and
Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since
the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel
and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky,
a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it
possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank
in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an
eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St.
Seraphim's Church.
Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel
conducted occasional services--Sunday Vespers weekly and an early
Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed
an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel
was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the
members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since
one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the
property.
On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood
by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly
afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734
McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two
groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month
and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time.
In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and
both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted.
Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October
31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the
Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St.
Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster.
For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father
Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander.
In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father
Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the
weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the
benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of
that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal
Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956.
In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and
to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's
Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at
4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were
arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building
served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March
and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In
1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The
house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a
rectory.
In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction
of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia.
Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to
approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy
has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with
two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday,
Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays
and on holy days.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is
entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern
Orthodox Church," when was that prepared?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I have no idea because I have--let's see--the early
part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything
historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or
can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something,
and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it."
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this
historical summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you read this historical summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events
that are recited in that 1-page summary?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I am.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does
Father Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the
recital reasonably accurate?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does
not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here
he said:
"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish,
"and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St.
Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own."
Well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along
together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two
churches.
Mr. JENNER. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your
testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that
expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church,
that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the
English language.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were
said in what language, again?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal
reason either.
Mr. JENNER. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St.
Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the
sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian
origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Either fought or escaped.
Mr. JENNER. Fought the Communists or Bolsheviks or escaped from their
regime.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--because there are lots of women and children over
there, you see, they never fought against them.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not
fight.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. And because of that common experience they tended to stay
together?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--more closely knit.
Mr. JENNER. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of
the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. St. Nicholas was organized to begin with.
Mr. JENNER. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it
and you are more active in that Church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of
that group, are you not?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I am president.
Mr. JENNER. You are president of that group, but you are a member of
the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a
parishioner?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or
given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon?
Mr. DAVIS. I would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for
the split of the church?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I just made a statement a while ago.
Mr. DAVIS. I didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was
split?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean,
it's purely personality.
You see, Father Royster at that time--that's the main point--Father
Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians
it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to
the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained,
but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by
Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so
he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get
in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be
ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan,
B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the Ukranian branch of
Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and
so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic
facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and
in fact, Ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the
rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of
their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian.
Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I
mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but
verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked
me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek
Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened.
You see, some of the statements--like he said, "In September of 1958
the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to
that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia."
Well, he is Russian Metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country.
Mr. JENNER. The words "in this country" should be added there?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor,
but substantially, it is correct--what he said.
Mr. JENNER. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy
the historical statement into the record?
The REPORTER. Yes, sir.
(The instrument referred to is set forth on pp. 8 and 9 of this volume.)
Mr. JENNER. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and
otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the
views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with
respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I
understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas
Church.
Mr. JENNER. Largely?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. So--I don't know how that came about--perhaps she is
Russian. I can understand so much--she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is
Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox.
Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners,
by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There's no question about it.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the history, there's no question about
it--largely?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Largely.
Mr. JENNER. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one
major motivating force?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who
are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they
also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be
the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn
the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their
opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in
America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in
St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are
getting to--that is the first time I heard she was Russian--they told
me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and
that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald,
how they helped her and everything else and I asked them--"How did it
happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened.
Mr. JENNER. She went to St. Nicholas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; St. Seraphim's.
Mr. JENNER. And that caused what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they
understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life.
Mr. JENNER. She did what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life----
Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to
sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are
atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists.
Mr. JENNER. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized
in St. Seraphim's?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas
Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she
believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a
factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist,
because Communists are atheists?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but
there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct--which was that the Communists may have
been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way
to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community.
Mr. JENNER. Lead people to believe that you were a Christian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And not an atheist?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined
and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one
thing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see--I don't trust them in any kind of a condition
or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any
difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful--it's just like Mr.
Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know,
lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he
lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how
they operate.
Mr. JENNER. Did there in due course come into this community a man by
the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you were here when he came here, were you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in
Dallas while I was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to
see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere
in that neighborhood.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of him prior to that time?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I heard of him through Jake Hamon.
Mr. JENNER. Through Mr. Hamon?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Hamon, H-a-m-o-n [spelling]--Jake.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known,
and he told me there was a Russian here--do I know him, and I said,
"No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him--at a party.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to
the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and
acquire some knowledge of his origin and background?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his
history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some
of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning
the business associations or contacts you may have had with him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt
comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by
the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and
they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations
and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know,
and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de"
Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"--yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand
that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the
University of Chicago.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the University of Chicago or Dartmouth?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Or what?
Mr. JENNER. Dartmouth, or the University of Chicago?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It might be, now, but at that time when I first
learned it--he was at the University of Chicago.
Mr. JENNER. And his first name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say his first name was?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I thought you gave it to me the other day?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe I could get it from some other source?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--not from me. Now, when I first knew George he
was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in
Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his
own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil
operator.
He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first
wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife.
Mr. JENNER. What is her name?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember; I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. But you have met her?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is
next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was--that's where
this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the
Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. Was her name Wynne, W-y-n-n-e [spelling]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; we called her something else--it will come to
me--just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were
spastic.
Mr. JENNER. Was a boy and a girl?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. One of them since died.
Mr. JENNER. The boy?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my
understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as
I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and
when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim
the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts,
but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and
my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit,
that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to
Dallas and join this Russian community?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And be a member, because----
Mr. JENNER. A member of what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of the social group that they were here originally.
You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you
it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the
suit--whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs.
Crespi can give you more information than that.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. whom?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one
who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that
time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been
borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time.
The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly.
Mr. JENNER. The last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; $500.
Mr. JENNER. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you
can't recall at the moment?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Isn't that funny?
Mr. JENNER. And he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that
correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he married a third time?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A third time.
Mr. JENNER. And is that his present wife?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And who is she?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question----
Mr. JENNER. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your
recollection?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean.
Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she
was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that
she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our
form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist,
Anarchist or what.
Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl.
Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was
either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age--came
to China?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that
she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never
expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of
Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You
know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel
Jenner off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to
the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political
views?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you
say--"And political views?"
Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then
his wife, Jean.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that
after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems
from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times,
he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the
Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to
provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would
like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but
in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had
some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes
him tick?
He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and
we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his
personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with
you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the
political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a
character?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and
believe me, that's the only time--first of all, I've got George De
Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding.
Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle.
Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain
set of Russian emigre?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have
against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a
donation.
Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt
like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he
never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me
any political questions or give me his views except one time when he
went to take the trip--the walking trip.
Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border
down to Panama?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was
elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags
about things--he was bragging about many things.
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he
met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why
didn't he shoot this b----d?
Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?"
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding
smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire.
Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative
in his attire in the sense of nonconforming?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best
definition I can give you.
Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a
by-the-Baltic German accent.
Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it
is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think
she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was
definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George--now this
is again my idea----
Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your
idea.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I
don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George
in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give
him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a
religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead
the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything
but the Spartan life in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when
he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal,
maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can
remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about
and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. To the banker--the banker--Commercial de Haiti. You
can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you
want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time--he was
trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with
Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and
they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could
pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get
people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I
believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of
Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's.
Mr. JENNER. Down through Mexico?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI
and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or
nothing."
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine.
He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go
with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as
to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the
Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every
country in the world--you know what I am trying to say?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I do. I am familiar with the name Schlumberger.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. And that he might be interested in going in business
in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and
nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down
after the investigation.
Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some
correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things
began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I
thought I better keep a file on him.
Mr. JENNER. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the
works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; you know, he was consultant to the Yugoslav
Government?
Mr. JENNER. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government.
In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of
our Government, maybe--I don't know under what protocol that we were
helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in
order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some
man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--I can say this--I
don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him
because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times,
but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and
asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give
him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he
wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What
could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly
all right, I mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer.
Mr. JENNER. And that's your opinion of him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field
is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of
underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job,
and as far as I know he quit the job--he was not fired.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community
for truth and veracity?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this--I
don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person.
Mr. JENNER. His reputation in that respect is poor or bad?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.
Mr. JENNER. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of
morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Bad.
Mr. JENNER. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability
in the profession which he pursues?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Good.
Mr. JENNER. For example--as a petroleum geologist?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; petroleum engineer--good. His knowledge of
languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I
believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there,
where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also
went there at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal
American? If he has a reputation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now,
remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you
see, than he was before with his second wife.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds
was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his
friends.
Mr. JENNER. From a prior social circle?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he met them--I don't know where he met them,
but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was
originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt
in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the last 5 years, let's say?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and
George Brown--they are brothers.
Mr. JENNER. What business are they in?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, again, don't put this down.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr.
Raigorodsky, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Now; I want this on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George has been friends with many, many influential
people in many cities.
Mr. DAVIS. In all of them, I imagine.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of
important people?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No--he was my friend, I was his friend--he was Jake
Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend.
Mr. DAVIS. How often did De Mohrenschildt see him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jake?
Mr. DAVIS. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and
George Brown?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite
often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to
deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any particular business that he had in
Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. What information do you have regarding his interests or
business in Houston--I take it that it came from his making statements
to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, except in his dealing with John De
Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters--you
see, there is a copy from John De Menil.
Mr. JENNER. Where do you have information as to whether he was required
to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He--I can't answer that.
Mr. JENNER. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in
Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sure.
Mr. JENNER. He is a professor at Rice Institute?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right--he's head of the Russian church in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. He is the head of the Russian church in Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--I'm a
godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr.
Jitkoff's background.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mr. Jitkoff--he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you
call it.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he, by the way, your best guess?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is
younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is 50 some odd
years--55.
Mr. JENNER. He is closer to 50 than to 60?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Is he somewhere between 50 and 60?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a
tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club.
Mr. JENNER. Where--Dallas or Houston?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is
teaching Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Was De Mohrenschildt an athletic man?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. Is he interested in tennis?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; very much so.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically
inclined person?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Also interested in tennis?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport
to the extent of engaging in the sport itself?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. As far as I know--swimming.
Mr. JENNER. Ice skating?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't remember anything about that, but they always
played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they
played tennis all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of them ever live in the Stoneleigh Hotel?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same
people--the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace--the
Tower Terrace.
Mr. JENNER. Are these buildings all in proximity one with the other?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the
Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to being an expansive person, is De
Mohrenschildt a generous man?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I would say he is a generous man.
Mr. JENNER. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the
goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in
like circumstances?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would say he will do it because he wants to show
what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It
would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were
appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk.
Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere,
while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and
sincere about it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for
example?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. And was he a man given to extreme statements in public?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a
big party--I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I
met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at
a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons
and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do
it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would
say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever
it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and
somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's
the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest,
but we didn't know how much truth there was to it.
Mr. JENNER. And would you give us the reason for that view?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he's liable to do anything.
Mr. JENNER. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no
control over himself, really?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's what it is--because of his character.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the
type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he
might hesitate to do himself?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business
in which he is engaged in Haiti?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government,
it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I
think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan
or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there--he
is there, and moved his furniture.
Mr. JENNER. That's so--in the spring of 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have had correspondence with him since?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De
Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate
almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything
else in it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here is a letter of June 30 that must have been left
here.
Mr. JENNER. Is this June 30, 1963, or 1962?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It must be 1963--yes, it is 1963.
Mr. JENNER. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of
November 22--I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he
had been in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. After this--that's right; I see it is 1963, after this
fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas--which I was called on.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your
testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife
Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with
the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's
son.
As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe
sued directly, to see what you could do to help out?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; friends of her family.
Mr. JENNER. Friends of her family?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In fact, Mrs. Crespi, appealed to me to see what I can
do.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Crespi?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her
husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.--a cotton
exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Crespi?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you understand Mr. De Mohrenschildt is doing over
in Haiti?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Over there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground
floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is
the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy
plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted
to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build
plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You
see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist
in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and
all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be
interested.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of
an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't a sort of--he is adolescent.
Mr. JENNER. He is adolescent?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. George will never grow old.
Mr. JENNER. But will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He always did.
Mr. JENNER. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that
amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. When we were 16--that's right--any kind of pranks.
Mr. JENNER. He is a prankster?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean,
his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys
it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very
effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned.
Mr. DAVIS. Would you say he is very distinct----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. There is no word for that--very engaging, I suppose
would be the nearest.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think
De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Occasionally.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the Haitian venture?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he sought to have me to participate in the deal.
Mr. JENNER. And you did or didn't?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. And that was to be what kind of a deal?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he
was planning to do.
(Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken
from your file. There is handwriting on the chart--is that George De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he send that chart to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; here's the envelope.
Mr. JENNER. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which
the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12,
1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Of what he plans to do there.
Mr. JENNER. Of what he planned to do?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows
he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking,
cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill,
weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available
for these industries."
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information that he is surveying the
physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is
how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting
jobs.
Mr. JENNER. For the Haitian Government?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. For the Haitian Government.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you
informed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know--I am not informed.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was
legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am
getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior
character?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I
think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John
De Menil.
Mr. JENNER. Which he was sending to John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a copy for me.
Mr. JENNER. It is to John De Menil?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would I have your permission to have these documents in
your file duplicated?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, sure.
Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would
have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously
pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in
which it was originally?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will be able to go through it with you.
(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs.
Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to
comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing
office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as
requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition
continued as follows:)
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows
what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and
everything.
Mr. JENNER. There were two files there, as I recall it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You can have them both--the other one is on the well
operation.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I understand. You were participating with him in some
drilling?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to
anything?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. One dry hole and one other. I want to ask you
something?
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H.
Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of
mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country.
We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago.
His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production
Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several
oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in
contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that
Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number
and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he
will come over here.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De
Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, I'm sure he is.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Basil Zavoico?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Basil--he is a Russian. His father was a general in
the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been--his primary
business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant
on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been
with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a
business of his own mostly connected with oil financing.
Mr. JENNER. Did he at one time reside in Dallas?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; he resided in Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George
De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings.
Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with
George than I had.
Mr. JENNER. And he lives in Green Farms, Conn.?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything
that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first,
in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and
secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and
interests of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told--it
is a hearsay--that after meeting Marina Oswald--the way Russians met,
there was a party somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. There was what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. A party--a social gathering.
Mr. JENNER. A party?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Somewhere--I don't remember where.
Mr. JENNER. Here in this country?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several
Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with
Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of
everything that they told me that stuck in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this
party?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'll say that Mr. Bouhe and Anna Meller.
Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; I'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other
Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party.
Mr. JENNER. We have had some off the record discussions all in the
presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred
during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have
failed to bring out.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off
of the record.
Now, may I say something myself?
Mr. JENNER. Certainly.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Would you care to know what my opinion of the
assassination is, or is that just an opinion?
Mr. JENNER. All right; let's have it.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I still believe it is a conspiracy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, on what do you base that opinion?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have read--I'm quite sure everything that you
have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these
interrogations.
There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like
Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the
basis of your opinion in that respect?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them
operating, you know.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off
the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want that on the record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well--the fact that they gave you all of the record,
they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around
in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out
of Russia--I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person
whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was
(snapping his fingers) so--just like that. It just reads too much like
a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they
surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things
which he received in Russia and in this country.
Now, Marina, I don't know anything about her.
Mr. JENNER. This is your supposition and rationalization on your part?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now. I have your file----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Now you take anything you want out of it.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's do it this way--I have your file which you
have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will just identify these documents.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You don't need to.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I need it for my record.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, all right.
Mr. JENNER. I am not questioning you.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I'm not questioning you.
Mr. JENNER. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate
telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or
what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a
circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
1].
What are they and how did you get those?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent them to me.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt sent that to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United
States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove
to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United
States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information
about him.
Mr. JENNER. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a
letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston,
Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the
second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand
corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."
In whose handwriting is that notation?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. His.
Mr. JENNER. That is in George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right, and this was the--outlining a project in
Haiti and the West Indies.
Mr. JENNER. And was there an outline enclosed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian
Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George
De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National
Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.]
That was enclosed with the letter?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline,
and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned.
Mr. JENNER. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page
carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be
the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1,
1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De
Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. These documents were transmitted to you. Did you save the
envelope?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, this looks like it.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in
his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's August 1962?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read
that for me?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, yes; it is the Banque Commerciale D'Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De
Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles."
This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's a photostat.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt send that to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On or about July 31, 1962, or shortly thereafter.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next document consists of--it looks like an
organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.]
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart
of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. And here again there is some longhand writing in ink.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that De Mohrenschildt's writing?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his signature?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And he also has written on there "Dallas, September 11,
1962."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was
transmitted to you, too?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to
what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.
10.] And just a diagram?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything else accompany that diagram?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, I'm quite sure nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt
Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.--is that what that is?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no; that's De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt.
Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas."
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It has a signature by "Tardieu". How did you come by that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He sent it to me.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16],
appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr.
Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt."
On the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize
the handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's signed by George.
Mr. JENNER. It's George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that
letter is you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the memorandum is for you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the
upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue
stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston,
Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then
apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and he investigated it later.
Mr. JENNER. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he
is not interested?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. But read this.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
"Dear Paul:
George De Mohrenschildt is a nice man, but I do not think his
project is very well cooked. It is slightly visionary and not
specific at all. This, of course, is my own personal reaction
which I am giving you for your confidential information. It was
also the reaction of my friend on Wall Street to whom I talked
in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea
of George De Mohrenschildt.
With kinds regards and best wishes,
Yours sincerly,
/S/ JOHN DE MENIL
cp
John de Menil
JdM:cp
Dictated by Mr. de Menil over the telephone from New York."
The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962,
with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit
No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You
received that, did you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary;
is that correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. The next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to Mr.
George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August
27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No.
10-B.]
From whom did you receive that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. From Mr. de Menil.
Mr. JENNER. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The
envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May
11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First
National Building, Dallas, Tex.
Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De
Mohrenschildt's handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it a card enclosed in that envelope?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The next is an original of a letter addressed to
Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M."
[Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.]
Is that George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that
letter in his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you received that in due course?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. This was written from Port-au-Prince.
Mr. JENNER. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans
Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.]
The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts,
it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over
the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt,"
and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner
is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.]
That is a letter to you, is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to
you, it looks like that is his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, that George's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September
12, 1963, was enclosed?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, I'm sure it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked
in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his
testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks
like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it
has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted,
accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note
on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18,
1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.]
It begins, "Dear Paul," and is signed by "Geo. De M."
Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's
handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, they are.
Mr. JENNER. And was the card enclosed in the envelope here?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes, and here is another letter.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on
both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at
Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit
No. 4.]
Do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, Mr.
Raigorodsky?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Whose is it?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. De Mohrenschildt's.
Mr. JENNER. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June
30--of what year?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. 1963. This is very interesting--this is a map of
Haiti. You see where he sent me--he said "Our Shada Concession."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De
Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the
map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; that's George De Mohrenschildt's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that from him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one
of the letters.
Mr. JENNER. One of the letters I have identified?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But all of that is his handwriting?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil
possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession."
Mr. JENNER. What is "Shada"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's where he claims he had the concessions for the
hemp.
Mr. JENNER. For hemp or sisal there?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes; sisal.
Mr. JENNER. These things will all show up on any photostat immediately
of this?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has
authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified
them in the record, so one thing is helpful--I don't have to go to the
trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and
secondly, in the event--if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I
will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of
this questioning of you.
Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would
like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily,
also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to
the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to
here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been
under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this
personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the
foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11,
11-A, 14, and 14A.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost
at this moment as I was then.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been very helpful throughout this.
Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this
deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will
be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some
corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a
privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also
have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your
deposition is with respect to all these alternatives.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when
you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help
you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we thank you very much.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)
The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J.
Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T.
Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Come in Mr. and Mrs. Ray and sit down.
Mr. RAY. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed
it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we
are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, I'm sorry. You are supposed to have 3 days' notice.
Mr. RAY. That's all right. We're here now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this
time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you
before we start.
(Witness complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I believe Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and I read it and have your name, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order
and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure
governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that
letter and copies of such documents?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed
to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday.
Mrs. RAY. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is
entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose
technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not
have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you
are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that
correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the
events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was
held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related
to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about
meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas
during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into
that, would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. RAY. Me?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what is your full name?
Mrs. RAY. Natalie.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your last name is----
Mrs. RAY. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. R-a-y [spelling]?
Mrs. RAY. R-a-y [spelling].
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence?
Mrs. RAY. Route 3, Detroit, Tex.--here, you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Where were you born?
Mrs. RAY. Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Stalingrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when were you born?
Mrs. RAY. In 1922, May 1922.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over
Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you
up and other Russian people?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp,
in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you in Germany?
Mrs. RAY. I been there until I come to America, 1946.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States;
what were the circumstances of your coming here?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated
by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and
then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send
us to Russia. At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers,
something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we
be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him,
well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at
home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American
man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will
not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get
marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that
they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I
am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending
all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I
have to stay until we get married. Well, they--Russians don't give me
permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became
as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could
marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah,
I guess 1945 or 1946--let me see, yeah, in 1945 because--or 1946. I
guess. I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were both in Germany at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on,
you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come.
We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I
go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I
guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right; that's not important.
Mrs. RAY. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946,
I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to the United States with your husband,
is that correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; well, we stay year in Germany after we marry.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then when he left Germany you came back to the United
States?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I go with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you an American citizen now?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I met them at this party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell
us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of
your recollection just how it happened.
Mrs. RAY. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris,
Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my
address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have
any--nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with Russian speaking people?
Mrs. RAY. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in
Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone
and said that--"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I
said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how
to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell
her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they
always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men
have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well,
I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have
contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr.
Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found
one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They
already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be.
She said on Friday--Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she
said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what
just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United
States.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at
this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you
like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.
Mrs. RAY. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will
come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went
to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were there, approximately, would you say?
Mrs. RAY. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots
of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know
what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and
this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this
Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and
asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did
you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't
have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do
much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or--I said, "Oh,
that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have relatives in Russia now that you know of?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have a niece what I been--she write my mother passed
away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when
Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay
and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two
children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and
one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my
mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was she living in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in
Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to----
Mr. LIEBELER. Kharkov?
Mrs. RAY. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's
not too far from Kharkov.
Mr. LIEBELER. I interrupted your story about your conversation with
Marina. Would you go on with that?
Mrs. RAY. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to
come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I
said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy
to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess
they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"--I let be get contact
now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get
her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and
I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you
want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her
husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody
and he speak just perfect Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak to you in Russian?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come
you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well,
he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You
just been three----
Mr. DAVIS. Excuse me, how long?
Mrs. RAY. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him,
I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh,
it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always
staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to
be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe
he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I
don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would
want to tell you the answer?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, always; he be very close.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to
learn Russian?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian.
I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English";
I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak
Russian. He just came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect
a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3
years?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know
American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really,
it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak
Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak
so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my
husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember
him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and
he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce
and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to
his wife, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with
Oswald as best you can recall it.
Mrs. RAY. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and
we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her
about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking
her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and
we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much
conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her where she lived when she was in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from
Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with
her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his
paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told
them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got
paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for
little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the
Russians; did she say?
Mrs. RAY. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go
back to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long they stayed in Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. She stayed 1 year.
Mr. LIEBELER. She said they were in Moscow 1 year?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American
Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow
before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian
Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her
paper and they left.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians gave her the papers?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina mention she had lived in Leningrad at one time?
Mrs. RAY. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in
Kharkov?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn what kind of job Oswald had while he was in
Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory,
some factory and we don't get any details.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where this factory was located?
Mrs. RAY. Located what?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the factory that Oswald worked in?
Mrs. RAY. In Minsk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do
you know about that?
Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they
coming and stay in Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for
a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and
then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by?
Mrs. RAY. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told
us that she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl,
she says she come back from Moscow.
Mr. LIEBELER. From Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know--let
me see how she say--that she come from Moscow. She fly--not fly--I do
not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but
she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she
been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. For a year?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not tell you what they were doing there for
a job?
Mrs. RAY. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and
that's as far as I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you
could tell?
Mrs. RAY. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she
don't understand English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment
they had to live in when they lived in Minsk?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you where they lived when they were in
Moscow?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that they may have told
you about the time that they were in Russia together?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things.
I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing.
All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so
easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my
impression been that everything is get better, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how much money Oswald was paid at his
job?
Mrs. RAY. Where, there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. No, uh-uh.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why Oswald went to Russia in the first
place?
Mrs. RAY. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he
went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to
Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he
want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then Mrs. Harris is one
that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to
stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's
party, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Yes--no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it
and Zena--that's Mrs. Harris--don't know either who they are but when
we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in
conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come
back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs.
Harris told you that, is that right?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion
about Oswald amongst the people there?
Mrs. RAY. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go
to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early--I don't
recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they
don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go
and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well,
we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at
this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they
gone and everything is forgot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that
there was a discussion about the Oswalds?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah, next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that?
Mrs. RAY. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We
went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we
staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but
she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2
weeks, Marina and her baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford told you this?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"--said she just
want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and
then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna
Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other
words a week after?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday,
that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask
by George Bouhe--or how you say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe.
Mrs. RAY. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what
being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and
that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his
wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both
there, is that right?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir; he.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yourself and your husband?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Harris.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Harris?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot
recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm;
I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been
from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Miss Biggers--Tatiana Biggers?
Mrs. RAY. Tatiana Biggers, yeah, she from Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else there that you remember?
Mrs. RAY. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't
remember what her name----
Mr. LIEBELER. Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
was said at this party or get-together?
Mrs. RAY. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him,
well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come
America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him
back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't
know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what
they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia
and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what
for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said
"Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he
cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every
place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time
work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give
job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and
said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to
making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her
here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty.
They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been
trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have
nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her
and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her,
not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell
me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living.
Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they
give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days
and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia
when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him
and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in
Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need
him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind
of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't
know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot--he don't
going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have
some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him."
Mr. LIEBELER. This is what Bouhe said?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she
is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him,
we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else was said at this time?
Mrs. RAY. Well, I don't know; I cannot recall right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or
not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government?
Mrs. RAY. Well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. Said Russia,
you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some
kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent
but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia
because so easy way to coming to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said
about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians?
What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can
recall the substance of that conversation.
Mrs. RAY. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what
try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but
said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we
don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told
him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said,
"You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you
know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia
and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They
going to do such a trick that you surprise.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to college in Russia?
Mrs. RAY. In Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this was while you were living in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad
and then I went home.
Mr. LIEBELER. Back to Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you study in Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Economist Statistics.
Mr. DAVIS. Economics Statistics?
Mr. LIEBELER. Economics Statistics.
Mrs. RAY. Economics Statistics.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you study?
Mrs. RAY. Three and a half year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you study in Leningrad, what college?
Mrs. RAY. Soljanoy Calach--that's salt. I suppose to after I finish
they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia,
Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish
in Irkutsk, Siberia.
Mr. DAVIS. This was a Leningrad college?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; that's Stalingrad.
Mr. DAVIS. I mean college.
Mrs. RAY. Yes; Leningrad--street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim
Gorky Street; that's college.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you there in Leningrad studying, what year,
what years?
Mrs. RAY. You mean when?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not
permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go
this far--that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and
I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home
in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying
school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You
have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home.
Mr. LIEBELER. To Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying
there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war
started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to
write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started
that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in
Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the Germans arrived in Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; when Germans come there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad
from about 1937, is that right, to 1941?
Mrs. RAY. In 1941 when I coming home and just about 4 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you
started at the university in Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3-1/2 year
and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you
know, practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice
program in connection with your college?
Mrs. RAY. No; at this time that's my job. That's where I have to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go from Leningrad to Siberia to start
work?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come
back and then they assign me to Siberia.
Mr. LIEBELER. And, you actually went to Siberia before you came to
Stalingrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to
Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. This time I did not stay long. I had this plant they have on
ground.
Mr. LIEBELER. Salt processing?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like
to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to
admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I
coming home.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you
went there the first time?
Mrs. RAY. No; but I been to Siberia before on practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having
with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here
by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him
or asked him to do it.
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was?
Mrs. RAY. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first I talk
with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said
why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him
back, never can tell what is going happen. George--one said he don't
have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is
silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--I
don't know how to explain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mental case?
Mrs. RAY. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any
count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have
enough sense. Said--they said they going to be through with him. They
don't want have anything to do with him any more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this conversation carried on in Russian or in English?
Mrs. RAY. In Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your husband there at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me
sometimes. He remember this discussion, too.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did
Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs. RAY. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on
English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we
tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald
might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married
to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason
that led you to suspect he might be an agent?
Mrs. RAY. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot--I don't know
how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can
quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They
send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go
home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there
and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he
seems--from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but
not as far as this; other, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought that in addition to his apparent--in
addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he
was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was
able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought
he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to
believe that?
Mrs. RAY. Well, main things--I don't thought those things be made
him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people
quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't
thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man
coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can
tell what they----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would do?
Mrs. RAY. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they
don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to
other country and working.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people
who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside
Russia and be agents for Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never received but I do know that we have it in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know; do you have schools like that?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in
military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We
study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the
people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need,
you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a
war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Russians do not want a war?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them
have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves,
but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures
where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other
countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to
always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as
much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it.
I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's
first time I meet these people.
Mr. DAVIS. Where would that school be; do you know?
Mrs. RAY. Which kind?
Mr. DAVIS. School where they would teach people this.
Mrs. RAY. That is really secret. They don't let you know. In Russia?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. I don't know if they do train agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were told this when you were going to school in
Leningrad, is that correct?
Mrs. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion
as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a
Russian agent?
Mrs. RAY. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided
he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we
don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been
wondering, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree
that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did
not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian
agent?
Mrs. RAY. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they
do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be
not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such
difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any
such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not
Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the other details of these
conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can
recall?
Mrs. RAY. No; that all I recall right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his
wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that
correct?
Mrs. RAY. No, sir; I never see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the
Commission should know that you have not already told us?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know nothing else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you would like to add to your
testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly
well?
Mrs. RAY. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I
saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away
and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do
you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man;
made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there
here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when
my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well,
you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he
said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility
after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the
assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might
have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again?
Mrs. RAY. No; we not. See, my husband called George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and
said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said,
"Well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "We
just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any
enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure
out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they
don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we
been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just
want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one
Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and
he thinking I am telling--am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina,
and this man is----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Attorney General.
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank
you very much for coming in.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY
The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand?
(Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to
take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that
Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would
contact you to take your testimony.
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's
procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the
letter?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness
to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify
although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive
the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post
office.
Mr. RAY. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your
testimony at this time?
Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again.
Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates
basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your
full name for the record?
Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name?
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't.
Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir?
Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a
hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for
Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right
now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am
going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as
assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2
years.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray?
Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
you met and married your wife?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already
know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army
used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen
work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she
and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was
go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and
feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her
back to the United States; is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later
discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in
Frankfurt.
(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney
general of Texas leaves the room.)
Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think
actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which
would have been 16, 17 months, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank
when you met your wife?
Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your
wife when you were in Germany?
Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps
but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send
all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to
Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and
never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government
stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go
back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about
our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get
all the Russian nationals back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian
authorities before she could marry you?
Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't
say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see
the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here?
Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was
during that time that they were trying to send them all back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mr. RAY. I met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your
meeting them, where was it, what happened?
Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how
you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your
contact was.
Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his
wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or
something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten
acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and,
actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over
here. We came and we met them over here.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the party?
Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met?
Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to
go to the Ford party?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we
went to this party.
Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of
Declan P. Ford?
Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were
made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford
from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be
and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we
were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes
on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was
said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along
with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and
went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday
night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on
Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until
Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at
the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald
was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because
when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get
acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't
get acquainted with Oswald or his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald
at all?
Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a
handshake or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can
remember at the moment, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. No, I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was
kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have
any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English?
Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English,
is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the
ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you?
Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I
wasn't around him very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford
party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in
your presence?
Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember?
Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or
Miller.
Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right?
Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband
was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]?
Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time?
Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and
Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston
was there. I believe she was from Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?
Mr. RAY. No; I don't now.
Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you?
Mr. RAY. What was the first name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana.
Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe
she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got
acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there?
Mr. RAY. Well, I might.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really.
Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to
the best of your recollection.
Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a
nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think
the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of
this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to
help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly,
George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion?
Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too
good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He
wasn't real good to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have
beaten Marina up?
Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had
gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was
the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he
was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald
along these lines as far as you can remember?
Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea
and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed
me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did
have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said
at this point?
Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no.
I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee
and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and
that's the way it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether
or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me
like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for
all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States
and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time
that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you
know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean?
Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my
mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked
odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife
out partly related to the difficulties you had had?
Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known
the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and
you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered
at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much
trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did
look odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember
amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this
question?
Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say
whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago
and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you
know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I
wouldn't say for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in
Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people
that were at the house?
Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some
Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to
death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian
and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all.
I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking
to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of
leaves Ed and I out when we are together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion
on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't
want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you
remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have
good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a
job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these
reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was
not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?
Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and
I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the
Russians would not want him or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint
recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you
believe?
Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility,
see.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying
is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it
is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm
recollection?
Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the
Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit
prior to the assassination?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had
completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure
we talked about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation
might have been?
Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the
country.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that
they might have sent him back for something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you
recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's
involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the
assassination?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got
home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald
and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the
guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know,
the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know,
brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes
misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be
mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President.
I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the
President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and
so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these
people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the
guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short
conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said
it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time
I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year
had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a
year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he
remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told
me "Yeah, that's the guy."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or
not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have
been the man who really did assassinate the President?
Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how
Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place
at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all
those places in that short length of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at
this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?
Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure
how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and
then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how
many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this----
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre.
Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from
place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little
doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement
based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and
you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did
not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he
was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion
with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?
Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George
was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He
said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying
to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy
when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I
remember that statement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he
tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his
previous association with Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying
to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?
Mr. RAY. I think so; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told
us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the
paper", said "It's all in there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else?
Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I
don't remember anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about
that?
Mr. RAY. About this deal?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time?
Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody
else that was at this party about this assassination?
Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now,
that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie
a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but
anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we
did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to
get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and
on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and
that's--of course, we discussed it then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together
at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was
discussed?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the
whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into
the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how
it came about, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was
there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was
said about it?
Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or
agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a
Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did
you get that opinion?
Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I
would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever
telling you that they thought he was?
(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.)
Mr. RAY. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be?
Mr. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or
not he was a Russian agent or might be?
Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation
that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or
something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course,
you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would
want, you know, for a Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is just----
Mr. RAY. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the
people that knew him thought; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is just your own thought on it?
Mr. RAY. That is my own thoughts on it, see.
Mr. DAVIS. Have you all--I might inject here--have you all gone over
the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of
these other people that it was strange about them being able to come
out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move
about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that
it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed?
Mr. RAY. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and
my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country
and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or
longer--how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him----
Mr. DAVIS. Going on 3 years.
Mr. RAY. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of
ridiculous to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the
Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife,
wasn't it?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. DAVIS. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where
the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there
been very frequent--I mean, have you and your wife gone--I believe this
was the first time?
Mr. RAY. This was the first time we ever.
Mr. DAVIS. Did they mention about this having happened fairly
frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in
Dallas?
Mr. RAY. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know,
somewhere around New Year's--Christmas or New Year's; something like an
annual affair for them to get together.
Mr. DAVIS. Did you know--were there any others in this group or did
you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story
like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go
out of Russia?
Mr. RAY. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were
Russian descent or else they were like--they had married a Russian over
there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody
there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of
them.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard of no other examples where people had come
out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct?
Mr. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You know or did you hear of it?
Mr. RAY. I did not hear.
Mr. DAVIS. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since
the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and
go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to
contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this
proved to be?
Mr. RAY. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on
the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and
the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally
gave up.
Mr. DAVIS. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence
it has been made easier to communicate back and forth?
Mr. RAY. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a
couple years before we even knew it.
Mr. DAVIS. How long has this been you received that information?
Mr. RAY. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by
when my wife found out about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she
died, do you know?
Mr. RAY. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure
that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near
Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you
know, took place, in Arzamas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know
or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion
that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this
point, go right ahead.
Mr. RAY. I think we pretty well covered it. I hope you have.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down
here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much.
Mr. RAY. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with
what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the
guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses
of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI,
because of that. They might contact these people and find out more
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think they have talked to most of them.
Mr. RAY. I am sure they have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN
The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen?
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr. BALLEN. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin
mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact
you this week to take your testimony.
The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to
authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.
Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of
the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did
receive those, did you not?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts
with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your
association with George De Mohrenschildt.
Will you state your full name?
Mr. BALLEN. Samuel B. Ballen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. BALLEN. 8715 Midway Road.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. Dallas 9.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior
officer in several corporations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Included among those corporations is the High Plains
Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are an American citizen, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. In New York City.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr. BALLEN. November 1950.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your age, sir?
Mr. BALLEN. Forty-two.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background?
Mr. BALLEN. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend
Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y.,
and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University,
Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University,
and Texas A&M.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the graduate courses in, generally?
Mr. BALLEN. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum
engineering.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr. BALLEN. In some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy.
My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De
Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife
had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from
Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems,
that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a
job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for
him.
I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately
2 hours with him.
He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to
go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with
him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to
the YMCA where he was residing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision?
Mr. BALLEN. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or
the very early part of 1963.
I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down
the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and
that was also true of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you;
do you know?
Mr. BALLEN. He indicated to me that he was not employed.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he was living at the YMCA in Dallas, is that
correct?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct. He told me that his--I knew he had a
wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some
friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where his wife was staying?
Mr. BALLEN. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De
Mohrenschildts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an idea from De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just
coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very
vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the
Oak Cliff region.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his previous
employment?
Mr. BALLEN. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him
and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop
some employment for him.
He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in
the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction,
but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his
lack of any usable training.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told
you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may
have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper
in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use
commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a
result of his interview with you?
Mr. BALLEN. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started
out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having
a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out
feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had
been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore
on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a
rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded
individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him
down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting,
trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical
Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction
equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area
of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the
conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too
much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the
team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I
think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what
I could do.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this
to try to help him find a job?
Mr. BALLEN. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached
my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general
manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be
generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any
memory of my calling him in that regard.
Mr. LIEBELER. The other individual being the man in charge of
operations at Log Services?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this
conclusion that you have just expressed?
Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to
your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that
you and Oswald had that day?
Mr. BALLEN. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from
De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and
come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine
Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector.
I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this
Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for
himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors
had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He
gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion
of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was
hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there.
I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make
this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a
negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still
had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be
fairly realistic.
Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of
detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own
institutions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along
that line?
Mr. BALLEN. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but
there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general
observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me
that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R.,
and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached
student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be
snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press
or official spokesmen.
He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses
type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me
the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible
industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he
could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept
saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he
said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you
worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it
became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think
will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular
hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective
reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him,
I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the
course of your discussion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited
as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would
have--this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I
would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards
President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You drew that inference simply as a general impression
based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him?
Mr. BALLEN. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically
that led you to that conclusion?
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor
Connally mentioned?
Mr. BALLEN. No; it was not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular
institution of the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our
religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he
referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the
United States. I cannot document that with any specific items which
were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this
had come out during that discussion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it discussed in terms of the Negro race problem?
Mr. BALLEN. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the
meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had
a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that
this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of
compassion for mankind generally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies
which had as their end racial prejudice?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt
that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of
any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable
you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced
by racist or hate propaganda?
Mr. BALLEN. You will have to make your question more specific.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who
would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated
with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind
of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the
position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union
and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of
plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute
their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the
situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward
hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them?
Mr. BALLEN. I think I understand your question, and there would have
been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular
organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain
difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to
the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not
ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in
this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as
heck to gain employment.
I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of
training you have, if you get employment."
And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training
other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work
he did in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am
sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I
have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have
worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about
camera and reproduction equipment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Mr. BALLEN. He did say that the economics there were awfully tight.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as
to what his income was?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income
while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this--his job?
Mr. BALLEN. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a
little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?
Mr. BALLEN. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of
sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the
United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out;
and I got out."
I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious
effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she
was reporting to us that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts
were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty
miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at
each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to
bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people
and mingle and otherwise.
George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our
house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing
that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something
in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife
didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation
to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of
them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had
of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He
was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And
my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise
would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently
moved into Dallas from afar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember with any great specificity the things
that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such
an independent fellow?
Mr. BALLEN. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have,
a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the
shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within
the Soviet Union in any way?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that he had done considerable
traveling there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you
get that information or impression?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet
Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just
incredibly boring and dismal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring
or dismal in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came
down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to
impose on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you question him--did you have questions in your own
mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling?
Mr. BALLEN. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who
could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very
little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he
did, engender a certain amount of sympathy.
In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and
if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like
that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get
around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of
money to do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I am sorry. I don't know more specifically.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him
money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing
that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the
wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit;
"Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get
myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to
a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had
received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was
in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about
photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated
that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and
understanding of that type of machinery?
Mr. BALLEN. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment
myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different
types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous
cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion concerning his wife, Marina?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Marina?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital
when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the
Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his
return to the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this
thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and
now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into
all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because
he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to
renounce his citizenship?
Mr. BALLEN. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would
have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a
job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was
employed and lived in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so
much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and
what I have read in the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was
employed in the city of Minsk?
Mr. BALLEN. That is correct. I would have thought that he would
have--my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of
Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I didn't ask him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his
wife when he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as his return to the United States is concerned,
you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to
leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the
bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any
resentment?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made
life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human
being.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and
Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating
to possible resentment of the United States?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the
Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as
Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians
who had delayed his return, is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, it was a matter of working then through these
bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the
American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the
same?
Mr. BALLEN. I would say about equal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald concerning
politics?
Mr. BALLEN. Not in addition to what I have already alluded to,
parenthetically.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational
background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and
that sort of thing?
Mr. BALLEN. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate
conclusion I came to was that he left--that he lacked educational
training.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper
in New Orleans?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction
facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans,
and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in
New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you
about his activities in New Orleans?
Mr. BALLEN. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans,
and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban
committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this
was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with
any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or
any part of the political spectrum.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know that he was a professed Marxist?
Mr. BALLEN. He may have--I think I had the feeling that he, to the
extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and
was a critic of societies along Marxist lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about
religion?
Mr. BALLEN. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I
think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview
with him, made statements to reenforce that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about
Oswald before you actually met Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir.
Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had
been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either
for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred,
and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of
Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking
young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length
in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back
who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow
with no hatred.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no
hatred of anything?
Mr. BALLEN. That is what--De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that
his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with
hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions
connected with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind
when you met and talked to Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent;
yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that
he would have had a little disdain for both sides.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get the impression, however, that he was
emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two
sides? Would that be a fair statement?
Mr. BALLEN. Definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not
be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda
that might be disseminated in the country?
Mr. BALLEN. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and
would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United
States, including our Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced
by propaganda of this sort?
Mr. BALLEN. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't
appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference,
to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress
me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way,
and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to
involve him in my firm, which means a team operation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person
or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence?
Mr. BALLEN. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the
unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the
degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It
was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable?
Mr. BALLEN. Appeared to be just a little too much a hard head.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mr. Ballen?
Mr. BALLEN. Too much a hard head?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; what do you mean by that?
Mr. BALLEN. I--just his general conduct, his general responses, general
bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just
seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively,
a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally
ill, I didn't come away with that feeling.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at
self-improvement or self-education that you could give us?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership,
literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little
curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of
reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as
someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian
literature?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to
comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he
understood them to be Marxian leanings?
Mr. BALLEN. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly
his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity
to go into that with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about
December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald?
Mr. BALLEN. Was that the FBI or the Secret Service?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, agents Kesler and
Mitchell.
Mr. BALLEN. Yes; I recall being interviewed, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were
familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings?
Mr. BALLEN. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I
have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your answer was?
Mr. BALLEN. No, sir; I don't remember what my answer was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were
unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of
the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia?
Mr. BALLEN. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective
on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the
newspapers--all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the
best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my
memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not conscious of any difference in those two
answers?
Mr. BALLEN. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the
same as my answer here today.
Mr. LIEBELER. Assuming that was your answer that day?
Mr. BALLEN. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my
best memory and best recollection at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relationship between
Oswald and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events
after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George
meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this
fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for
individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his
wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that
this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were
leaving for Haiti.
George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a
week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes
more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house
at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the
Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at
the wall and fighting each other."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was
an attempt made on the life of General Walker?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BALLEN. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss
either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that
occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some
pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed
it with him in any great----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in
connection with the attempt on Walker's life?
Mr. BALLEN. None whatsoever. I don't think he ever mentioned it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he did?
Mr. BALLEN. I do not.
Mr. LI
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