Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (08 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. VIII (OF 15) ***
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
Pursuant to Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ VIII
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume
VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S.
O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle
Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were
associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn
Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic,
Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while
he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick
Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George
Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis
Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr.,
Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis
Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service
in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who
saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A.
Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H.
Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became
acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in
1962.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Edward Voebel 1
William E. Wulf 15
Bennierita Smith 21
Frederick S. O'Sullivan 27
Mildred Sawyer 31
Anne Boudreaux 35
Viola Peterman 38
Myrtle Evans 45
Julian Evans 66
Philip Eugene Vinson 75
Hiram Conway 84
Lillian Murret 91
Marilyn Dorothea Murret 154
Charles Murret 180
John M. Murret 188
Edward John Pic, Jr 196
John Carro 202
Renatus Hartogs 214
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel 224
Nelson Delgado 228
Daniel Patrick Powers 266
John E. Donovan 289
Allison G. Folsom, Jr 303
George Donabedian 311
James Anthony Botelho 315
Donald Peter Camarata 316
Peter Francis Connor 317
Allen D. Graf 317
John Rene Heindel 318
David Christie Murray, Jr 319
Paul Edward Murphy 319
Henry J. Roussel, Jr 320
Mack Osborne 321
Richard Dennis Call 322
Erwin Donald Lewis 323
Martin Isaacs 324
Pauline Virginia Bates 330
Max E. Clark 343
George A. Bouhe 355
Anna N. Meller 379
Elena A. Hall 391
John Raymond Hall 406
Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) 415
Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin 425
Igor Vladimir Voshinin 448
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Bates Exhibit No. 1 340
Carro Exhibit No. 1 213
Donabedian Exhibit No. 1 312
Folsom Exhibit No. 1 304
Hartogs Exhibit No. 1 220
Isaacs Exhibit No.:
1 328
2 328
3 328
Siegel Exhibit No.:
1 227
2 228
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL
The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old
Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Edward Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your place of business?
Mr. VOEBEL. At the same place.
Mr. JENNER. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that's here in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your
mother and father, are you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mother, uncle, and grandmother.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your business?
Mr. VOEBEL. Quality Florist Co.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age, Mr. Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. I am 23.
Mr. JENNER. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of
the Warren Commission, did you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate
Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to
investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B.
Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
this one. You received that also?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you gather from those documents that the
Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and
circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the
late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking
depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey
Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of
their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of
the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some
contact with him; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a few questions about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey
Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that
came about.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was?
Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about
1954 or 1955.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole
story?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would
like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him,
because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing
who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this
fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and
tried to patch him up a bit.
Mr. JENNER. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you
remember?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances of that, please.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee
had a fight with a couple of boys.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names?
Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.
Mr. JENNER. John and Mike?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were classmates?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as
Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a
grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight
with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I
think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the
street in the direction naturally in which I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and
people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place,
and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run
them off of one block, they would go on to the next.
Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. How about size?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than
Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way.
The fight traveled my route home.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the
street?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the
little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was
two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch
to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.
Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer.
Mr. JENNER. The little boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that
happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for
some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against
one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that
this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that
this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his
lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the
boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit
him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody
off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that
time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth
bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think
I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day
or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening,
and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple
of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I
didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.
Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous
football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him
really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was,
and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help
him.
Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the
post on him.
Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you.
That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on
Lee at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble
he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think
this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys,
so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this
happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they
were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him
up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say,
began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I
would say.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he
was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was
cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point
on, would you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and
share interests, and what were his interests?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never
even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown--I told
the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but
actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I
did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and
sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool.
Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to
come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.
Mr. JENNER. And did you accept his invitation?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's when we played darts.
Mr. JENNER. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. On Exchange Alley.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange Alley?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you find him adept in playing pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the
fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating
him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that
good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I
don't think he was a great pool player.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to
the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he liked it.
Mr. JENNER. He liked to play pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he seemed to like it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a
picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the
paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a
lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met
her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had
a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now,
maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind
as I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't, really.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink occasionally?
Mr. VOEBEL. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a
drinker.
Mr. JENNER. How about Lee, was he a drinker?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen
or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot
of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for
drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I
think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.
There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and
that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke,
which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so
he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the
others.
Mr. JENNER. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what
you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time
you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not.
That's my problem.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a
man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14
or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you
were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was.
People change, of course.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee.
I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee
Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him,
but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school
together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think
in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had
the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that
I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would
have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the
Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't
know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost
contact with Lee years ago.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least,
that was my impression of them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you
say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at
Beauregard School while you were attending there?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be
troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at
that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a
fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to
fight at that school.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of
characters that were going to that school at that time.
Mr. JENNER. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that
in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or
inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just
the opposite of that; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight
a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but
if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he
ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going
to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I
might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been,
now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if
you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of
his way to avoid it.
Mr. JENNER. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't
want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was
a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to
speak?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a coeducational school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. High school or junior high?
Mr. VOEBEL. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a
grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when
it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters.
As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now,
but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very
often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang
wars and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. You still live close to the school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near
there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics,
pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long
time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it
was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics
people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there
for about a year, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High
School to then enroll in Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's normally right.
Mr. JENNER. That's the regular progression?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him
after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during
that summer.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade,
or what?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. Let's see--no; I think we were in the
same grade, I think we were.
Mr. JENNER. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school?
Mr. VOEBEL. I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Any reason?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system.
Mr. JENNER. That's why you went over there?
Mr. VOEBEL. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a service man?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what branch?
Mr. VOEBEL. Army.
Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we
had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and
stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember
participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't
remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym
periods were different.
I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so
there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a
lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think Lee did?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule
accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone
comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or
clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just
like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody
new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the
community before they accepted him.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that
compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when
you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something,
you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.
Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh,
maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue,
I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time
a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face
something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he
joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was
the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and
adolescent things.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force,
whatever it was; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; he met it head on.
Mr. JENNER. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid
it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I
think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They
thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used
to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always
be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they
would hang around in bunches.
In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school
where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked,
so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and
finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after
school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.
Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of
people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk
myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was
inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't
fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over
to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using
all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle
ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just
had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't attack you any more?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was
normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, except that he didn't make friends.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he was not inclined to make friends.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't know why he was so disinclined?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends.
It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally.
He was just living in his own world, let's say.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have some measure of common interest that you
told me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you
have in mind?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns.
Mr. JENNER. And these were regular weapons, not toys?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a
collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few
foreign military weapons.
Mr. JENNER. Was that World War I?
Mr. VOEBEL. World War II.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, my uncle.
Mr. JENNER. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around
the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and
I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old,
you see.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt
about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same
reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like
anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always
liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often
thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had
this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones
they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any
weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he
wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting
them or anything.
I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and
cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to
want something just to have it, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't interest him in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music,
and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things,
and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't
seem to run that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was he interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I never had seen him drive at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the subject with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or
couldn't drive an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was
interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went
fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They
were no bigger than that.
Mr. JENNER. Almost minnows?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right, and I think he liked to fish.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about fishing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed
fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although
I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went
fishing that day.
Mr. JENNER. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances?
Mr. VOEBEL. Financial circumstances?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his
finances.
Mr. VOEBEL. Poor.
Mr. JENNER. Poor?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That made no difference to you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter
whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are
very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me.
It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't
fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some
class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an
interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less
common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested
in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like
that, because I don't have the time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you get out of the service?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two years ago. I just served 6 months.
Mr. JENNER. That's a sort of special program?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves.
Mr. JENNER. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army
Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say
you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the
apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot
pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or
three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late
in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a
couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at
all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons
and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them
out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever own a weapon?
Mr. VOEBEL. A real one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something
there that you want to tell me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45.
Mr. JENNER. A plastic model?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now
about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed
with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about
stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother
me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and
everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, we were over at Easton.
Mr. JENNER. Easton High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were
putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high
school.
Mr. JENNER. Was that right at the time you were graduating from
Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from
Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard
altogether?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Or was that at Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for
about a year?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been
over there, but I don't remember that at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go on with your story.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we
were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the
plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed
a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his
plan was to steal it.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't one of these collector's items?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell
you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was
just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an
automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention
to it.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the pistol in the window?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following
week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and
a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to
how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the Rampart Street store?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this
plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the
glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he
was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told
me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the
window and everything, and I didn't know what to tell him, so he said,
"Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind
it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we
walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the
window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was.
He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him.
I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice
this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar
alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk
him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think
that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that
tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed
me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the
inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try
it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he
finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal
Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window,
such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway,
he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was
the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, it was just a real cheap one.
Mr. JENNER. This was a plate glass window, though, you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass
window with a glass cutter?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the
cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really
wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was
really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got
in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it
seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point
where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through
with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look
back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if
he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you
know, but I am just speculating on that, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean the politics in the pure sense.
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to
be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things
about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back
when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney.
Mr. JENNER. You and he never discussed anything like that, then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at
that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like
political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot
of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even
know that. I know we never discussed anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the
service, I believe; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have
two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing.
Mr. JENNER. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or
playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were
they?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, I never saw them. I never met them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee
and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you
usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my
opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as
Lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and I think
she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like
Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time.
I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was
something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her
children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I
guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to
him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about
anything.
Mr. JENNER. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean,
did he cut her off short in any way?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at
that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other
kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are
normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to
a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his
mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you
know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a
mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; never. He was no mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often
indulgent toward him?
Mr. VOEBEL. In one way; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In which way was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she
would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even
if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course,
if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for
him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything
like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe
he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but
that's just the way he was.
Mr. JENNER. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as
to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his
father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal
in life. What was his attitude about that, if any?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his
father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his
father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's
unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt
bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked
about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard
together.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever come over to your house?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for
sure, but I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Were you active in sports?
Mr. VOEBEL. Just in intramurals.
Mr. JENNER. Did he play any intramurals?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so
I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think
everybody had to play some intramural sports.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling
that there were things that should have been accorded him by way
of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been
deprived because his father had predeceased him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Did he have a feeling of that at that time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those
thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than
it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly
good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. We would play darts and
play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you
that impression?
Mr. VOEBEL. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I
am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination
occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we
were in Beauregard together.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the
impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as
compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this
man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I
think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course,
at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind
trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out
looking for something like that unless you have a reason.
Mr. JENNER. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that
Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around
and associating with Lee Oswald?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you put any credence in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one
that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one
to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be
reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal
things that kids read.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a voracious reader in those days?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the
time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great
reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I
guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me,
even music when I first started with it.
Mr. JENNER. Are you still interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I still play music.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with
Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity
of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?
Mr. VOEBEL. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand
then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to
mix with people; that's all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that
has remained in your mind all these years?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted
to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you
see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that
maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people.
Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't
tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I
knew how he didn't like to mix with people.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this
horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of
Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and
behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since
his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him;
is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects,
and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of
a gang at school, or anything like that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. While you were going to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look
for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few
friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that
seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more
or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his
studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that
right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he was just an average student.
Mr. JENNER. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do
you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his
attendance was pretty good.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was not much on the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with
Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about his brothers?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but
there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his
brothers--I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I
have no impression of that whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received
his just dues in the world up to that point?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't
really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression.
That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have such an impression at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I
said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing
because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression
at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I
think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter
toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my
opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were
going to Beauregard, to the same school.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your
opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young,
and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that statement?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it?
Mr. VOEBEL. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think you had those impressions then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later.
Mr. JENNER. What was that embitterment directed toward?
Mr. VOEBEL. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that at that time, did you?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do,
or made to do something.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think they have two.
Mr. JENNER. Two?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there two here at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking
about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he
attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently
bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember,
in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.
Mr. JENNER. He just attended two meetings of the CAP?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two or three meetings, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And that's all he attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when
Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that
I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but
he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join
the unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to
be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it
was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he
was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't
attend any more meetings.
Mr. JENNER. You thought that was strange?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my
opinion now, I guess--not then, but I think now maybe he liked the
uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those
classes that we had.
Mr. JENNER. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that
Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just
didn't show up any more.
Mr. JENNER. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require
some study?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of
his earlier life?
Mr. VOEBEL. His "history"?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; his background--anything about his family before he
ever met you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but
he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or
anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here
from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I
don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he
wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at
that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all
this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things
like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and
things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to
anyone in your presence, that you recall?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times,
just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he
did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would
impress me so that I would remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a
week, or how often?
Mr. VOEBEL. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have
actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe
attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a
sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the
whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the
weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but
maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Was this CAP unit coeducational?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too,
isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out
there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.
Mr. JENNER. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They
might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest
me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interest Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't
show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind?
Mr. VOEBEL. None whatever.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in
that respect?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't
pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else.
I think that was probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that you can think of from your
acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you
could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what
I have asked you?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of
reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege
and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on
to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be
transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know
when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in
that regard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told
you what I know about it.
Mr. JENNER. You prefer to waive that then?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF
The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week----
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Advising you that I would be in touch with you----
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I
understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive
order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well
as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did receive the letter, et cetera?
Mr. WULF. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge
that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New
Orleans during the period 1954-55. Before we get into the details of
that, however, would you state your full name for the record.
Mr. WULF. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. WULF. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf?
Mr. WULF. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. WULF. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New
Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are you majoring in?
Mr. WULF. History.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been attending LSU?
Mr. WULF. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You obtained your primary education and secondary
education here in New Orleans?
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you obtain that education, what schools?
Mr. WULF. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh
grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De
La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu
High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then from there you went to LSU?
Mr. WULF. LSU, right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military
service?
Mr. WULF. No. I am exempted at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has received information to the effect
that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy
Association----
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or
what was it at that time?
Mr. WULF. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school
students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in
astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the group still active?
Mr. WULF. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls
of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact
that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in
college.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans
Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were
contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WULF. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed
this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at
this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is Palmer McBride?
Mr. WULF. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted
me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was--I had
originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and
all, probably it was September or August in 1955.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you?
Mr. WULF. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had
talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they
were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe
he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group
and I told him--he asked me could he come over to the house one time,
and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed
between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit.
Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow that called you and then came over to your
house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to
associate Oswald with this particular person.
Mr. LIEBELER. This association was made by you at some time subsequent
to the assassination. Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night
following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call
from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been
employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental
Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald----
Mr. WULF. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New
Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture,
and then I subsequently found out--I confirmed it when I asked the FBI
agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and
he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same
person.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee
Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you
saw in the paper?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then as a result of that association, you asked the
FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's?
Mr. WULF. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the
association, other than--I must stipulate at this time that when I had
met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would
like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI
interviewed you?
Mr. WULF. I have no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not contact the FBI?
Mr. WULF. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it
was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos
on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as
everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not
think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even
surprised that I got your letter from the Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way
as to how they had been led to you?
Mr. WULF. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that
knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride,
so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the
subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they
got this particular knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you
remember?
Mr. WULF. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records
from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954--that is a rough
date--probably towards the end, probably--let's see--I am trying to
associate it with the Astronomy Club dates--towards the end of the
school year 1954-55, so that would probably be in--oh, March and April,
around that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1955?
Mr. WULF. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I
could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but----
Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to
join the Astronomy Association----
Mr. WULF. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride
and become a friend of his after that?
Mr. WULF. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact
with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the
city I still see him.
Mr. LIEBELER. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental
Laboratory? Is that right?
Mr. WULF. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I
don't know the exact title of his position.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Only at the time that--two occasions or possibly three--I
think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of
Oswald's beliefs, and I told--McBride had always told me that he
wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket
engineering and rocketry--like we all were nuts on rocketry at the
time--and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with
him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want
to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a
security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature."
Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that
correct?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What led you to make that statement to McBride?
Mr. WULF. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting
with Oswald when we got into a discussion--I being a history major
and always been interested in history, some way or another we got
around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was
reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding
the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in
communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et
cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for
a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a
little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that
would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after
this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back
and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard
what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed,
boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put
him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with
Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and
boisterous?
Mr. WULF. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous
person?
Mr. WULF. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over
communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue
with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right
before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to
Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous
boy and very determined in his way about communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or
strongheaded about other things?
Mr. WULF. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought
he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in
other words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then there never was any question of physical----
Mr. WULF. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Contact over this thing?
Mr. WULF. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a strongly presented argument?
Mr. WULF. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started
hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through
Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him
violently, and he asked him to leave the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your father a native of Germany?
Mr. WULF. Hamburg.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had been involved in some political activities
with or opposed to the Communists?
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany
following the war, 1919-20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic
Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and
he just--well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't
like Communists.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything about the details of your first
meeting with Lee Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that
he asked--we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the
conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck
me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the
time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered
in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we
were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data
we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be
hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him
from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of
the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3
o'clock in the morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was at a meeting of the association?
Mr. WULF. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house.
It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something
like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and
just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is
somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at
that time?
Mr. WULF. Not at that time; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you remember anything else about the second
meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?
Mr. WULF. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed
communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made
Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that
way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little
about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and I
can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist,
he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist
Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to
find a Communist organization?
Mr. WULF. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name
Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking
for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he
couldn't----
Mr. LIEBELER. Couldn't find one?
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as
this with McBride?
Mr. WULF. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride
and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when
we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent
leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop
associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except
for, you know, working hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed
communism with him?
Mr. WULF. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were
on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social
association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys
struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had
quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and
I think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they
were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and
McBride? Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. On this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for
one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that
they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were
that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride--he
wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more
money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and
not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride
associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after
this second visit that--we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald
specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable
on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy
Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite
conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I
was quite conscious of security matters and all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest
in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?
Mr. WULF. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was
strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any
belief in communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two
pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and
453-B."
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in
those pictures?
Mr. WULF. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo
453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on
"Pizzo 453-A."
Mr. LIEBELER. You recognize that as Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I
subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can
associate.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these
pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of----
Mr. WULF. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints--I can tell by the grain--and
they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are
the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what
you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do
not associate the other man marked----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your
observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having
seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?
Mr. WULF. No; I base that picture on--when I first saw those films
originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling
that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it
was many years ago, it was--oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was
younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but
he seems to me to be the same person.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the
logical steps that----
Mr. WULF. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that logical association is the association that we
have already described throughout this record?
Mr. WULF. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New
Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know
for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that
year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his
mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him.
McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had
asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his
mother?
Mr. WULF. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like
this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is
hearsay, of course, through McBride--that his mother didn't associate
with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as
such.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in
1955-56?
Mr. WULF. Right, 1955.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the
assassination?
Mr. WULF. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once,
and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram
requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no
answer, and we were wondering where he is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If
you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like
to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would
appreciate it if you would add it.
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. The only thing I can--I don't know how
many people have told you of this period of his life--I amplify that
at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently
for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young
at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for
communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing
that did hit me, he seemed--I told this to McBride at the time--he
seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I
don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may
have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to
associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and
at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification,
and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to
become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time,
and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to
Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the
time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to
thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent
that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.
Mr. WULF. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH
The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized
to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the
authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I
would be in touch with you concerning your testimony.
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the
Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred,
as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr.
Rankin's letter and those documents?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to
the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged
assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at
some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into
the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name
for the record, if you will.
Mrs. SMITH. Bennierita Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married? Is that correct?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your name before you were married?
Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio. My maiden name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SMITH. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born?
Mrs. SMITH. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us your educational background,
please.
Mrs. SMITH. Starting from kindergarten?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue
in Lakeview. Then I went--it was either the third or fourth grade I
transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview
School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and
that is all the schooling I have had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate?
Mrs. SMITH. 1958.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you attended
Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended
Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and
well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always
getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well
outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in
fights?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what you know about that?
Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was
this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight
with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit
Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that
boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so
well?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. That is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Mrs. SMITH. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of
patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he
didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the
only one I remember. And they had this little boy--I think it was Bobby
Newman--he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much
about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was?
Mrs. SMITH. Bobby Newman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Bobby Newman?
Mrs. SMITH. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to
me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far
as--I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with
other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or
less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung
around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Mr. Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I
knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well,
I knew his sisters.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Voebel's sister?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris--and they call
the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one
you described in which Oswald had his lip cut?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and
knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight
or that the other guy started the fight?
Mrs. SMITH. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I
know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the
fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school
but he didn't go there, you know, he just----
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same
age as the rest of the students?
Mrs. SMITH. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to
Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me,
and I am almost sure he was older than her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which
Oswald was involved?
Mrs. SMITH. That is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the television program that was played over
WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to
my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he
called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I
thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been
such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they
were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he
wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't
anything I knew about him.
Mr. LIEBELER. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them.
And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and
pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my
girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school
with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so
happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I
told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in the television program?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; the three of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three of you would be yourself--and what were the names
of the other two girls?
Mrs. SMITH. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of
yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right?
Mrs. SMITH. Larry and Bob?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. No; Larry--I met Larry--gee, I don't even remember--I
guess maybe at a school dance or something--and I went out with him,
and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to
see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get
some--well, more or less a story together.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the other boy?
Mrs. SMITH. Bob Jones?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. SMITH. Well, he broadcasts the news.
Mr. LIEBELER. He works for the television station?
Mrs. SMITH. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we
just answered him, but I didn't know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You
mentioned this fight to him?
Mrs. SMITH. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we
knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as--like we
would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in
class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he lived?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details
about Lee Oswald than you did?
Mrs. SMITH. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know,
that he always wore these sweater vests--they are more or less in style
now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school--it was just
like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe
he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl
friend told him about that, and--I am trying to remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was
that something that one of your girl friends remembered?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him
dressing that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this
first?
Mrs. SMITH. I think it was Peggy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Peggy?
Mrs. SMITH. Peggy Zimmerman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else that the three of you were able
to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by
the television people or after that?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was
this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald
being involved in?
Mrs. SMITH. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was
in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that?
Mrs. SMITH. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother
who told her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the
time he went to Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. Not that I know of, not in school.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any
close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the
possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right?
Mrs. SMITH. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a
sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed?
Mrs. SMITH. He wore levis, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that different from what the other students wore?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants
or khakis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of
the way he dressed or the way he----
Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed
around by the other boys for any reason?
Mrs. SMITH. No; not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about
Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is
there, or----
Mrs. SMITH. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall
in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just
show his back and--but there isn't anything other than that fight. I
think that is what made me remember him the most.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar
or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way
in which he walked?
Mrs. SMITH. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they
just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight
with them or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody?
Mrs. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know how this fight----
Mrs. SMITH. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I
say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see,
they were fighting, but I really----
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't seen him--gee, I guess since I graduated
from Beauregard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located?
Mrs. SMITH. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near
the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street
from St. Anthony's Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it
out farther?
Mrs. SMITH. No; well, it is further down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal
Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here
[indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town.
Mr. LIEBELER. Quite a way from here?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride
practically to the end of the line.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you got to Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end
of the streetcar line.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be several miles from here, would it not?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I guess--let's see--it must be about the 4000 or
6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the 6000 block?
Mrs. SMITH. I think so. I am not sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is Beauregard we are talking about?
Mrs. SMITH. Beauregard; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me the area the people that went to
Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area
surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans,
or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school?
Mrs. SMITH. Each high school has its own district, so that the people
that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly,
you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school
board.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district
was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has it changed much since then?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or
middle-class neighborhood?
Mrs. SMITH. Middle-class neighborhood.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the
time that he went to Beauregard, do you?
Mrs. SMITH. No; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record)
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior
High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a
particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than
Beauregard?
Mrs. SMITH. That draws from a district too.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that district included the district encompassed by
Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; and also, well, around Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard
Junior High School District, does it not?
Mrs. SMITH. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically
went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but
it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened,
it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Lee Oswald attended Warren Easton High
School?
Mrs. SMITH. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't,
but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking
outside of school.
Mr. LIEBELER. But nothing else?
Mrs. SMITH. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton
other than that, I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that
stands out in your mind?
Mrs. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton?
Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating
from Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it was right after we had started at Warren Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself did graduate from Warren Easton, did you not?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is
that right?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of
time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part?
Mrs. SMITH. No; just--I may have just seen him once or twice at the
beginning of the school year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the
same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social
background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs. SMITH. I think so, but there were a few kids--well, boys--that
were----
Mr. LIEBELER. Of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; I wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were people from a different class or different
group of society?
Mrs. SMITH. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I
don't know how true it is, but that is what they say.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or
heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you?
Mrs. SMITH. No; I never have.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I
haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would
set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we
haven't covered?
Mrs. SMITH. There isn't anything else I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to
thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that
you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very
much.
TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN
The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7-8, 1964,
at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that
I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony,
and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and
the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules
of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of
witnesses. Did you receive the letter?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were
they not?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things the Commission is interested in is
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the
extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in
evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was
alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge
that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the
record.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as
I understand. Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police
Department?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Six years.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how old are you now?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Twenty-six.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a
junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; Beauregard Junior High.
Mr. LIEBELER. Beauregard Junior High?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. On Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard
Junior High School?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to Beauregard?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. One year.
Mr. LIEBELER. And where did you go prior to that time?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. St. Dominic's.
Mr. LIEBELER. St. Dominic's?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Elementary school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In Lakeview in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Beauregard, where did you go?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans also?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend college at any place?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a
police department scholarship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald
when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him,
what contacts you had with him, just the whole story.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while
I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet
members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at
the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was
Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel--I am not sure how that name is
spelled--and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was
I noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a marching team?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself
always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching,
that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders
back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really
fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could--well, he even
gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he
ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the
three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out
there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at
school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the
airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or
two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then
joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a
closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to
the squadron he had joined.
Mr. LIEBELER. At Moisant Field?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. At Moisant Airport.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald--I didn't know this until I
read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short
time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived
either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New
Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from
French Street around 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the
time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his
friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of
our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning,
but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of
the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of--I was an
athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a
thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What particular sport were you involved in?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do
with sports activities?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close
acquaintances at that time, or do you know?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and
went out to Moisant and evidently--or I believe he talked Oswald into
coming out there with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not
Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had
uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport
and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot
of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether
they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more
cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can
check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to
Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol
program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the
NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to
summer camp we would fire on the range.
Mr. LIEBELER. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer
camp?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National
Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of
any kind in connection with CAP activities?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any
rifle practice in connection with the CAP?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I know him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David
Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans
Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that
correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there
was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am
not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He
could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when
he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with
the Moisant squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when
Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when
he went to Moisant Airport.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated
with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I am not sure of any.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no
direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would lead you to
believe that there was a relationship between these two men?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went
through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get
some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me
up at home, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were these files located?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. These files are in the possession of one Robert
Boylston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all
were, at New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the records come to be in his possession?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently
dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just
turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old
records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course,
I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and
what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much.
Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything in these files that related to
Ferrie or Oswald?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing
in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all
that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the
Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and
we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in
a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron
in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald.
I don't know if he was involved, he could have been.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you found nothing in the files?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Nothing concrete.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald
and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that there has been
publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible
relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am
sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this
Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I
don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under
investigation of whatever it was, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you go ahead.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans
Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New
Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to
check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been
flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald
to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we
found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had
flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to
see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there,
and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an
airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice
activities here in New Orleans?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the
whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution,
homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we
handle.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection
with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct?
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We
have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Now see if you can recall or think back to your
experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you
can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want
to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and
his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this
ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this
correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would
like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else.
I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if
I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure,
but there is nothing else I can think of.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if
there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of
the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER
The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to
take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that
we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the
Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just
referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the
taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr.
Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my
place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up
the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going
through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or
some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result,
after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little
curious and looked, and I found that there was one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days'
notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3
days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you
are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.
Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid
there is very little I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but
one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much
background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the
hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in
fact he did assassinate the President.
Mrs. SAWYER. I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the
time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place
where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked,
more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I
felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going
to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so,
whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment?
Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place
where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street,
and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you
remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage
there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some
little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an
engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in
and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have
someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it,
way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was
quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around,
and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back
and forth ever since.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime?
Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without
looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My
husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3
years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is
kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it
was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son,
were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and
they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and
I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all
about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI
sometime back in November?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and
that is when I realized that they were the same people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent
during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my
mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my
husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was
out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway
or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps.
About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is
about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say
"little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely
remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly
hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once
in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I
was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and
he seemed quite polite.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old?
Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a
little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as
I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he
actually is or was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange
Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called
Exchange Alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was
working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been
trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I
believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember
which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was
buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she
might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in.
In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her
for anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs.
Oswald and this boy? Is that right?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was?
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or
same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room,
combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a
small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and
I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building
going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close
to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that
lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home
before his mother and he was very quiet.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home
before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I
say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the
door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and
undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had
been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very
low voiced and----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any
scolding?
Mrs. SAWYER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the
things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days,
especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very
much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out
at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something
like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any
conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my
own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with
other people, and I think neighbors especially.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or
anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come
and go?
Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock
in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes
I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock
or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working?
Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary.
Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too?
Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that
that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds
left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were
going or anything?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about
where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me
that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and
shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I
came back, well, they were gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or
particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him
to distinguish him from other boys his age?
Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of,
and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke
to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very
average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked
and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would.
About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was
rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during
that time?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that
she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them?
Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If
you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that
you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you
can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered----
Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that
apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved
into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it
was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have
been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee
to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first
contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly?
Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person,
but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well
spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything
like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this
little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I
did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that
came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice
would be involved in anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever
hear him talking about politics to anybody?
Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than
just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or
something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him
at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14
years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would
have been quite----
Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious?
Mrs. SAWYER. True.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think
of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming
over.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome.
Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself
personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the
cooperation that you have given us.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is
so vague and such a little bit.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX
The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband's name is Edward?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general
counsel of the Commission, did you not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution
137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I have the letter with me.
Mr. JENNER. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the
United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its
powers and duties?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
this one?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I therefore take it you understand from
those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed
to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of
November 1963?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of
the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see
if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in
its investigation.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact
with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others,
information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the
Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because
these are always a little inconvenient, of course.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline
Street, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Since 1932--no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15,
1942.
Mr. JENNER. 1942, rather than 1932?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. You were born here and reared here?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I was born in Louisiana, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. My husband too.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a family?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I do.
Mr. JENNER. How many children?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I have five children.
Mr. JENNER. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11.
Mr. JENNER. Two 16's?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you
know?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with her?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that
house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I do not.
Mr. JENNER. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a double house.
Mr. JENNER. A double house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that up and down, or side by side?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Two sides.
Mr. JENNER. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Who occupies the other house?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. On the other side?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a Mr. Russo.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Russo?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I
moved in.
Mr. JENNER. When you moved in?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; they were there already.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought
about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some
experiences with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see
me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roach?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did she live?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their
babysitter.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; for the baby.
Mr. JENNER. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she live in that neighborhood?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street.
Mr. JENNER. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block
from the Port of Embarkation.
Mr. JENNER. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. She actually moved into the home?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and
I moved in.
Mr. JENNER. Shortly before that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was
through her that I knew the house was going to be empty.
Mr. JENNER. Through Mrs. Roach?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had been acquainted with her for some time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Roach?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little
bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June
or the latter part of May 1942.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with
respect to Lee's conduct?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Who, Mrs. Roach?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was
babysitting?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you
know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was
bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more.
Mr. JENNER. Lee then would have been about 2-1/2 years old, is that
right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A little more than that?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that
conversation with you.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She
said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the
chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a
gun or not, or what a gun was, would he?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy
gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time
with him.
Mr. JENNER. She thought he exhibited fits of temper?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's
what she said.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the other two boys.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the
other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had
other boys.
Mr. JENNER. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the
Secret Service?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; he came out three times to see me.
Mr. JENNER. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in
the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors
sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever
moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too
quickly, I mean.
Mr. JENNER. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was
her reputation for truth and veracity, for example?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to
me, I mean, the neighbors.
Mr. JENNER. You never heard anything bad about her?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother
to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I
have never heard anything spoken about her.
Mr. JENNER. When her son Lee was 2-1/2 years old, was she working at
that time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I think she was.
Mr. JENNER. Is that why she had to have a babysitter.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the
lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--Mrs. Roach. She's
deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there
when I moved in.
Mr. JENNER. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012
Bartholomew?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I
live.
Mr. JENNER. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4
blocks?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010
Bartholomew?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she
left there.
Mr. JENNER. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. The one where I was living?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. They were rented, but now I own my home.
Mr. JENNER. But they were being rented at that time?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The former landlady, is she alive?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; she's not.
Mrs. JENNER. She's dead?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she's dead.
Mr. JENNER. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard
of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me--until he
got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I
didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had--I
don't know if it's important or not----
Mr. JENNER. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't.
We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts
and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs.
Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and
then they never came back for the money, I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised
all my children with it.
Mr. JENNER. Is that right?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend
to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't
concerning them at all.
Mr. JENNER. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court
reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your
deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as
to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you
wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to
waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter
will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to
Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this
investigation.
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the
truth, and that's all I can do.
Mr. JENNER. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity
of reading and signing the deposition?
Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here
voluntarily and giving us your statement.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN
The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after
first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; that's Milfred.
Mr. JENNER. Milfred?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name.
Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Viola.
Mr. JENNER. Is that V-i-o-l-a?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that
correct?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The general counsel of the Warren Commission?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't
there?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing
the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the
assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the
Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and
fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules
and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and
have testimony before the Commission; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that
the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts
and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff,
in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are
deposing various people around the country whose lives came into
contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or
possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you
have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs.
Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I can only tell you what I know.
Mr. JENNER. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are
you a native of this part of the country?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; New Orleans, La.
Mr. JENNER. You were born here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was your husband likewise born here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what is his business or occupation?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the
building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.
Mr. JENNER. He retired last year?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; since March last year.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite
Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010
Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years
ago that they lived there.
Mr. JENNER. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see--I moved there in 1941; that's been 23
years ago that I moved there.
Mr. JENNER. Was she already living there when you moved there?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have
been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the
houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did,
because she was in there first.
Mr. JENNER. Were these relatively new houses?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; they were old places.
Mr. JENNER. They had been lived in before?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that
across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side
of the street?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Right next door. There were three single homes on two
lots, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Three single-family dwellings on two lots?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; on two city lots.
Mr. JENNER. Are they identical houses?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed
theirs up different, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Describe those houses for me.
Mrs. PETERMAN. What do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and
so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and
how large.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just
straight houses.
Mr. JENNER. Four rooms and a bath?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Of what construction; wood?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Wood; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I had four children.
Mr. JENNER. What were their ages around that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. When she moved there and we moved there; right around
that time, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12;
my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.
Mr. JENNER. Your eldest child was a boy or girl?
Mrs. PETERMAN. A girl.
Mr. JENNER. And her present name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that--Herrmann?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n.
Mr. JENNER. What's her first name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Marian is her first name.
Mr. JENNER. Does she still live in New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, she lives down in Chalmette.
Mr. JENNER. Is that near here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a city?
Mrs. PETERMAN. What, Chalmette?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St.
Bernard.
Mr. JENNER. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. She's now what; 45?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she
will be 46.
Mr. JENNER. Was she living at home at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a boy or girl?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Boy.
Mr. JENNER. His name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile.
Mr. JENNER. Where does he live now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court.
Mr. JENNER. St. Claude Court?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was her name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Myra; another girl.
Mr. JENNER. Myra?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Myra is now married; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What's her married name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Davis.
Mr. JENNER. What's the name of her husband?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Eddie.
Mr. JENNER. Edward?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it.
Mr. JENNER. Does he work here?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at Public Service.
Mr. JENNER. Where do they live?
Mrs. PETERMAN. They live on Cedar Avenue--713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie.
Mr. JENNER. Metairie?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that part of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New
Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.
Mr. JENNER. All right; and then your youngest?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Let me explain about her.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mrs. PETERMAN. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's
child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both
died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.
Mr. JENNER. What was that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Her name was--when she was single, Welbrock, but she
married, and now it's Kushler.
Mr. JENNER. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at that time, yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was her first name?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Cecelia.
Mr. JENNER. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they reside where?
Mrs. PETERMAN. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly.
Mr. JENNER. Rabbit Street in Gentilly?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a part of New Orleans?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it's the part out by the lake.
Mr. JENNER. Which lake?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr. JENNER. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PETERMAN. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's
34 right now.
Mr. JENNER. He's 34 now?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Myra will be how old?
Mrs. PETERMAN. She made 32 in February.
Mr. JENNER. And Cecelia?
Mr. PETERMAN. She will be 30 this month--I mean, in May--May 15.
Mr. JENNER. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending
elementary school, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did they all attend the same school?
Mrs. PETERMAN. They went to Washington, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Washington Elementary School?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. St. Claude and Alvar.
Mr. JENNER. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary
school and high school at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Who is that?
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from
high school?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to
high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.
Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately
when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to
herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years,
maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me.
I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones
herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about
all.
Mr. JENNER. But you did become acquainted with her?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes; I would say that.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had three children?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because
she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that
herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was
dead, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, P-I-C-K.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boy was----
Mrs. PETERMAN. Robert.
Mr. JENNER. And the third?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was the third one?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about
within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra
and Cecelia; is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age.
Mr. JENNER. Around Cecelia's age?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she
moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard
to recall all of that, to be exact.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. We want you to just give us the
information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I
really don't know to be exact on that.
Mr. JENNER. And John?
Mrs. PETERMAN. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going
to school.
Mr. JENNER. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is
that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that
would be Robert?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington
Elementary at that time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I
am not positive.
Mr. JENNER. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there,
Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved
before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3
years.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 years maybe?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know.
Mr. JENNER. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the
time?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, she was.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard that as strange, did you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much
with the neighbors.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that
Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced
her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was
dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she
moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead,
living, or what. She never mentioned him.
Mr. JENNER. When did you say you moved into that house?
Mrs. PETERMAN. In 1941.
Mr. JENNER. You moved there in 1941?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that
time, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how she supported herself?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold
her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I
don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then
later she opened a little dry goods store.
Mr. JENNER. A dry goods store?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I won't say a dry goods store--more like a grocery
store, I guess you would say--just a small place there in the front
room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. In her front room.
Mr. JENNER. The front room of her house?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it was a little grocery store.
Mr. JENNER. Would the local city ordinances permit that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a
short time--not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I
know that was the only money she had coming in at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please;
what kind of person she was.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, like I said--I don't know how to explain it, but
she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob
either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a
person that--I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with
her, and she was a good mother to her children.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. PETERMAN. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to
herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether
she did to the other neighbors, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't regard her conduct as strange?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of
person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that
neighborhood, I--there are some people living around there right now
that I couldn't tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go
out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way.
Mr. JENNER. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that
right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept
them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her
business at all.
Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and
Robert?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having
a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do
today.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I mean children back in those days were not like
children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and
they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little
child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I
just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We
didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We
all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe
it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any other children in the
neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of
those boys, do you think?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small.
My older ones might remember them.
Mr. JENNER. That would be Myra and Emile?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; Myra and Emile.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that
might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about,
either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you
about it, or anything you might want to contribute?
Mrs. PETERMAN. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell
you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after
she moved away we lost track of them.
Mr. JENNER. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them
and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you
said, the man found you?
Mrs. PETERMAN. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and
Marguerite took good care of him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with
your husband to talk to us.
Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S.
attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish,
to read over your deposition and to sign it.
You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate
knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your
deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write
it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may
come down and read your deposition and sign it.
Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about
everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the
ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think you were pretty close.
Mrs. PETERMAN. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday,
or the day before.
Mr. JENNER. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you
would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right?
You don't want to read it over and sign it?
Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir; I waive it.
Mr. JENNER. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs.
Peterman.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS
The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you
here today, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New
Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And you were born here?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no family, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have
brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named
Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with her?
Mrs. EVANS. In about 1930.
Mr. JENNER. About 1930?
Mrs. EVANS. Something like that.
Mr. JENNER. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I guess that's about right.
Mr. JENNER. She is either 56 or 57 right now.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her
between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of cards? Bridge?
Mrs. EVANS. We played bridge, yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with her?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend--hers and mine, and
we used to play bridge together.
Mr. JENNER. Was she married then?
Mrs. EVANS. She was separated from her first husband.
Mr. JENNER. Where did she live then, do you know?
Mrs. EVANS. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment
on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know
much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived
right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on
North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular
time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she
was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was.
Mr. JENNER. What's her sister's name?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Mrs. Murret.
Mr. JENNER. Lillian Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance continue for some years?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an
accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a
while, and she remarried--to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of that, did you?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see her from time to time in that interim?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything,
but I might have run into her--I imagine I did, on the street, but I
lost contact with her, sort of, and then--it was either just before
Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so
many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I
think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I
think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think
she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember
all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long
time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though
if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if
she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was
after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would
have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became
friends again, as to what happened.
I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start
seeing a good deal of her again until--let's see; she finally went to
work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that.
She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a
widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband in the meantime had died?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans.
Mr. JENNER. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party.
Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am
Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party
or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number
of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and
canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh,
Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and
went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and
she said, "Yes."
Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact.
Mr. JENNER. When was this, 1959, 1960?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago,
because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact
that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV,
but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance
to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to
it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I
don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and
I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the
paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship,"
and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her."
Mr. JENNER. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was
born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of
him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage,
and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the
child, and he wanted her to destroy the child.
Mr. JENNER. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about
Marguerite Oswald, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was
just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his
boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and
went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life
Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived
right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert
in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them
how about him riding them home.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to him?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting
insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie.
Mr. JENNER. At whose house?
Mrs. EVANS. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No,
let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or
divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John
Pic now?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib,
and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her
because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was,
oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those
two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he
started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with
him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2
years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby
right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar
somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from
other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of
it, because we got to be real good friends.
She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very
happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this
terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called
the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man
was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one
on the way.
Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her
home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in
this home--Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and
she bought a home over on--what's the name of that street back off of
St. Claude?
Mr. JENNER. Bartholomew?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home.
Mr. JENNER. The Bethlehem home?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly
with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was
with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her
sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she
had a woman taking care of the little boy.
Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why did she live there, do you know?
Mrs. EVANS. You mean on Bartholomew Street?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had
lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she
moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute--I might be getting those streets
confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left
her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home
was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in
that home and went to work.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your information that she immediately went to work
rather than try to live for a while without working?
Mrs. EVANS. She might have lived for a month or two, or something,
without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she
had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said----
Mr. JENNER. What couple was that?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't know what couple it was--somebody; she had put an
ad in the paper or something--some young couple. I don't know their
names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair,
that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little
Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts
on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now.
So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and--now,
this is what she told me; she told me that she bought this little
double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room
there.
Mr. JENNER. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, as I recall, she did.
Mr. JENNER. What's a "double"?
Mrs. EVANS. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door
here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes
some places, but we call them doubles.
Mr. JENNER. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that.
Mrs. EVANS. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with
her three children.
Mr. JENNER. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there
myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the
truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think,
still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other
place--that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on
Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was
between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there--the early
1940's, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. At that time she was living where now?
Mrs. EVANS. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was
with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She
would go down on Sundays to see her two boys.
Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain with her sister?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister,
but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I
don't know--I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing
her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday,
something like that, you know, just go around a bit together.
Mr. JENNER. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what?
Mrs. EVANS. He was 3 or 4 years old then.
Mr. JENNER. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't
he?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her
sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she
might have finally put him in there too.
You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age,
generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and
that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I
think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died.
You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his
father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she
always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort
of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his
father, I think, just as any mother would.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to
1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with
your recollection?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on
Alvar?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. I was told it was in that subdivision.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall her selling that house?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with
her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working,
and I didn't play cards then, you see.
She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards
with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only
through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned
what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her
all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it
was about a year before she went to Texas. It's hard to recall those
dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened.
Mr. JENNER. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in
there?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.?
Mrs. EVANS. Atlantic Avenue?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John
and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs.
Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Then she moved to Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With her children, of course?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred about that time?
Mrs. EVANS. She married again.
Mr. JENNER. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. That's why. She married a very, very fine man.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what his name was?
Mrs. EVANS. You know it; I will give it to you--Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all
right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a
very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to
post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places.
That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't
drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them
then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she
moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building.
Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her?
Mrs. EVANS. I did.
Mr. JENNER. That was his second marriage, isn't that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for
many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he
did get a divorce and married Margie.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember where he was from originally?
Mrs. EVANS. Boston, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. EVANS. They did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit them in Dallas?
Mrs. EVANS. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that address 4801 Victor?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend
of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with
this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was
living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I
visited her.
Mr. JENNER. Her husband and her two children?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her.
Mr. JENNER. Including Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address
I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that
could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived
downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr. JENNER. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see--yes,
she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr. JENNER. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert,
living at the home?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; they all lived together.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee, too?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to
travel, you say?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was
a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big
company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than
Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot,
and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of
that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and
he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking
Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and
all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they
went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went
to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here,
and she took an apartment with me.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind,
let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say
you visited them once in Texas, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that
is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went
to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the
summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there,
even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the
time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three
be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay
in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but
that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the
time like that.
Mr. JENNER. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had
the boys over at Covington?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the
summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington.
Mr. JENNER. Was this in 1946?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been,
but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years
for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it
happening.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The
pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission
wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion.
Mrs. EVANS. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would
take something to remember all of those details.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the boys during that period?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I
remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little
fellow.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because
naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a
better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two
boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they
were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother
can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the
child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but
in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better
woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to
support her children. She tried to support them herself.
Mr. JENNER. That was her own decision?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take
her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think
that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too
close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much.
Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but
after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and
she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on
these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee
would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage
because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a
spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him
to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe
both of them--I don't remember, but I think they both went into the
Marines----
Mr. JENNER. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older
boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of
course he never did see his father. His father never did care to
see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit
supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to
come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or
Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's----
Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working
at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came
back to New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one
time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and
at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said
she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she
answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened
Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a
Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly.
Mr. JENNER. And you were working at that time also?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant,
and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings
and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at
those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course
she went back to Texas.
I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas
Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be
in Dallas for a show--some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I
went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with
Margie.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was Margie?
Mrs. EVANS. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take
anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She
had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would
work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat
house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her
on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I
said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had
known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She
was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of
a bookworm, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that.
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a
loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay
too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I
mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself.
Mr. JENNER. He wouldn't bring boys into the house?
Mrs. EVANS. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and
he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper,
or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler,
"Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs
talking to me or something, and when he would holler at her, she would
jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life
was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about
13 about that time, I think, along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your
apartments?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when
they lived at my apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't
with Ekdahl any more when she came back here.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would
like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they
returned from New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because
I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean,
he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that
goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think.
I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so
much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when
she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the
full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They
would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I
think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would
say they were really a happy family in those days.
Mr. JENNER. They were a happy family?
Mrs. EVANS. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely
knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that
their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what
they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her
children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at
all. She was very decent, a very fine woman.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't
think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have
been able to find out.
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their
children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was
never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and
made do the best she could.
Mr. JENNER. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with
Margie then?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her while she was in New York?
Mrs. EVANS. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal
card or something, but I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was
when she came back to New Orleans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was
living in Texas, before she went to New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her
for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing.
For a time she lived--what's the name of that little town?
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean Benbrook?
Mrs. EVANS. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again,
that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living
with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was
right with them all the time.
Mr. JENNER. She kept Lee with her on all these trips with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs. EVANS. As far as I know, she did, yes.
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did she have Lee with her all the time?
Mrs. EVANS. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute.
If she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she
talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had
lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when her marriage to Ekdahl took place, Mrs.
Evans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it was when she went to Texas, just about at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. Around 1945, would that have been, in maybe 1944?
Mrs. EVANS. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas,
Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure.
Mr. JENNER. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they
struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. She said that he had had a heart attack, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. And he was courting her during this time?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of
see how he was getting along here, is that correct?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down
here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned
about him.
Mr. JENNER. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into
marriage then; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Ekdahl's sister approve of Marguerite?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she
went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look
after him.
Mr. JENNER. Then Margie moved to Texas with Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you say you visited them over there, in Dallas; is that
right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you think you might have heard from her at different
times when she was traveling with her husband?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right--you know, postal cards and such.
Mr. JENNER. And then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that
right?
Mrs. EVANS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And then you said you heard from her again?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the circumstances of that now, please?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's.
She was looking for an apartment.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean?
Mrs. EVANS. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was
a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family.
She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept
house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference
between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But
anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I
could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper
than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have
any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and
her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so
she made out with that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what year that was?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so
I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early
spring, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER. In the early spring?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been
in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I
can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie
decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the
fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody
else, and I told her that.
She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the
apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St.
Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked
at the house, and she thought that she would take it.
Mr. JENNER. She had an automobile?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she rode the bus out there.
Mr. JENNER. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She
just had found a cheaper place to move to?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she
liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it.
Mr. JENNER. Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite?
Mrs. EVANS. Just her and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. You did see Lee after they returned from New York?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6
months.
Mr. JENNER. Including Lee?
Mrs. EVANS. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months?
Mrs. EVANS. In this apartment, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the No. 6 apartment?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27
rooms or more.
Mr. JENNER. It was just one big building; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they
took one of them, you see--one of the smaller apartments. I had had
one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little
apartment.
Mr. JENNER. And that was at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. EVANS. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for
approximately 6 months, is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was in 1954, you say?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get to see both of them frequently?
Mrs. EVANS. Practically every day.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived
at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did
Lee Oswald look like?
Mrs. EVANS. What did he look like?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you
then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was more spoiled.
Mr. JENNER. More than before?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he
was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult.
Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not
yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very
trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't
any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New
York; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes; after they came here from New York.
Mr. JENNER. With his mother?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New
York and came to New Orleans?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to
me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not
right from New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went
back to Texas from New York.
Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far
back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I
just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently
was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that
they didn't get along--I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now,
that's my opinion. She never told me why.
Mr. JENNER. That's just your surmise?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee
in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and
considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't
happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't
have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead
her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love
on him, it seemed like.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in
New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. She never said anything to you that would have given you an
indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas,
or vice versa?
Mrs. EVANS. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that
she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then
over to New Orleans--Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had
had in school in New York City?
Mrs. EVANS. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a
man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted,
evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if
you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but
now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell
you that.
Mr. JENNER. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to
you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York
City?
Mrs. EVANS. None whatever.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware that she had been in New York City, of
course?
Mrs. EVANS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But she didn't say anything to you about it?
Mrs. EVANS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at that time Lee was about 15 years old; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS. He was, somewhere around there--maybe 13 or 14. I don't
know exactly.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between
the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother,
and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he
was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you
had seen him before that?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he
was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this
time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he
was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was
when he was younger.
The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he
demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be
downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the
head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something
to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing
me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running
upstairs to get something for him.
Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he
would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records,
and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure
out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled
teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that
aren't that way.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager?
Mrs. EVANS. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a
father to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone,
it's a hard row--I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, the
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