Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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Language: English
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (07 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. VII (OF 15) ***
Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V" symbols are denoted as =V=. Italicized
words are denoted with _underscores_.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ VII
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII:
Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K.
Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J.
M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens,
William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam
Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity
of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey
Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour
Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C.
N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts,
John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E.
Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W.
Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks,
Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee
Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or
observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination;
William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the
purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis,
who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill
Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper,
William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas
School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a
parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of
the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of
the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into
the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas
police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert
with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper
in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the
assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the
motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers,
assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and
testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade;
Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former
Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the
motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder,
who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda
K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove
Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the
morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett,
Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar
Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue
William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the
positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus,
a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert
A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms
identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert
Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity
of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms
store in Dallas.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Johnny Calvin Brewer 1
Julia Postal 8
Warren H. Burroughs 14
Bob K. Carroll 17
Thomas Alexander Hutson 26
C. T. Walker 34
Gerald Lynn Hill 43
J. M. Poe 66
John Gibson 70
James Putnam 74
Rio S. Pierce 76
Calvin Bud Owens 78
William Arthur Smith 82
George Jefferson Applin, Jr 85
Ray Hawkins 91
L. D. Montgomery 96
Marvin Johnson 100
Seymour Weitzman 105
W. R. Westbrook 109
Elmer L. Boyd 119
Robert Lee Studebaker 137
C. N. Dhority 149, 380
Richard M. Sims 158
Richard S. Stovall 186
Walter Eugene Potts 195
John P. Adamcik 202
Henry M. Moore 212
F. M. Turner 217
Guy F. Rose 227
W. E. Perry 232
Richard L. Clark 235
Don R. Ables 239
Daniel Gutierrez Lujan 243
C. W. Brown 246
L. C. Graves 251
James R. Leavelle 260
W. E. Barnes 270
J. B. Hicks 286
Harry D. Holmes 289, 525
James W. Bookhout 308
Manning C. Clements 318
Gregory Lee Olds 322
H. Louis Nichols 325
Forrest V. Sorrels 332, 592
William J. Waldman 360
Mitchell J. Scibor 370
Heinz W. Michaelis 372
J. C. Cason 379
Roy S. Truly 380, 591
Warren Caster 386
Eddie Piper 388
William H. Shelley 390
Edward Shields 393
Sam Guinyard 395
J. C. Day 401
Thomas J. Kelley 403, 590
J. W. Fritz 403
Mary Jane Robertson 404
Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 410
James C. Cadigan 418
Earlene Roberts 439
Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough 439
Kenneth P. O'Donnell 440
Lawrence F. O'Brien 457
David F. Powers 472
Clifton C. Carter 474
Earle Cabell 476
Mrs. Earle Cabell 485
Philip L. Willis 492
Linda Kay Willis 498
Helen Markham 499
Mrs. Donald Baker 507
James W. Altgens 515
Buell Wesley Frazier 531
Joe Marshall Smith 531
Welcome Eugene Barnett 539
Eddy Raymond Walthers 544
James Thomas Tague 552
Emmett J. Hudson 558
Edgar Leon Smith, Jr 565
Abraham Zapruder 569
Perdue William Lawrence 577
Ronald G. Wittmus 590
Robert A. Frazier 590
Cortlandt Cunningham 591
Charles L. Killion 591
John Joe Howlett 592
Marrion L. Baker 592
Robert Brock 593
Mary Brock 593
Harold Russell 594
David Goldstein 594
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page
Baker Exhibit No. 1 512
Barnes Exhibit:
A 273
B 273
C 273
D 273
E 273
F 275
Brock (Mary) Exhibit A. 593
Brock (Robert) Exhibit A. 593
Cabell Exhibit No. 1 476
Cadigan Exhibit No.:
1 419
2 419
3 419
3-A 420
4 420
5 421
6 421
7 421
8 421
9 421
10 421
11 423
12 424
13 424
14 425
15 428
16 428
17 428
18 428
19 428
20 429
21 429
22 431
23 432
24 432
25 436
26 437
27 437
28 437
29 437
30 437
Dhority Exhibit:
A 154
B 154
Gibson Exhibit A 71
Hill Exhibit:
A 50
B 52
C 53
Holmes Exhibit No.:
1 292
1-A 527
2 294
2-A 528
3 295
3-A 529
4 297
5 307
6 307
Hudson Exhibit No. 1 562
Kelley Exhibit A 403
Lawrence Exhibit No.:
1 579
2 585
3 586
4 589
Leavelle Exhibit A. 270
Markham Exhibit No.:
1 500
2 505
Michaelis Exhibit No.:
1 374
2 377
3 377
4 378
5 378
Moore Exhibit No. 1 214
Nichols Exhibit A 332
Potts Exhibit:
A-1 198
A-2 198
B 202
C 202
Putnam Exhibit No. 1 75
Robertson Exhibit No.:
1 406
2 406
3 409
Russell Exhibit A 594
Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.:
1 410
2 410
3 410
4 410
5 413
6 416
7 417
Sims Exhibit A 182
Sorrels Exhibit No.:
4 341
5 360
Stovall Exhibit:
A 190
B 193
C 195
D 195
Studebaker Exhibit:
A 139
B 139
C 140
D 141
E 142
F 144
G 145
H 146
I 146
J 147
Tague Exhibit No. 1 556
Turner Exhibit No. 1 222
Waldman Exhibit No.:
1 361
2 363
3 363
4 364
5 364
6 366
7 366
8 366
9 367
10 367
Weitzman Exhibit:
D 108
E 108
F 108
Westbrook Exhibit:
A 114
B 117
C 117
D 117
Willis Exhibit No. 1 497
Yarborough Exhibit A 440
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER
The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April
2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BREWER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?
Mr. BREWER. Johnny Calvin Brewer.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. Twenty-two.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?
Mr. BREWER. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102.
Mr. BELIN. What city and state?
Mr. BREWER. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?
Mr. BREWER. Born in Miami, Okla.
Mr. BELIN. In Oklahoma?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When did you move to Texas?
Mr. BREWER. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a
construction company and we moved to Texas.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir?
Mr. BREWER. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to
Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10
years in Lockhart.
Mr. BELIN. You graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?
Mr. BREWER. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San
Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's
Shoe Store. I--that was in September, and I got married in December.
And I have been with them ever since.
Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER. In September of 1961.
Mr. BELIN. Do they assign you to any particular store?
Mr. BREWER. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for
about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a
store down on Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman?
Mr. BREWER. I was assistant manager.
Mr. BELIN. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the address of that shop in Dallas?
Mr. BREWER. 213 West Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. They made you the manager of that shop?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been manager?
Mr. BREWER. Since August of 1962.
Mr. BELIN. From August 1962 on?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Until the present time?
Mr. BREWER. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.
Mr. BELIN. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?
Mr. BREWER. Second.
Mr. BELIN. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were
firing me, but it turned out they weren't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?
Mr. BREWER. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit,
that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be considered a promotion?
Mr. BREWER. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would
be considered a promotion.
Mr. BELIN. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the
day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about
the assassination, Mr. Brewer?
Mr. BREWER. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store,
just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the
bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all
there was. We listened to all of the events.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?
Mr. BREWER. I heard a rumor. They said that--one of the Secret Service
men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio
concerning anything that happened that afternoon?
Mr. BREWER. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what
they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too
much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated
them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard
on the radio that an officer had been shot?
Mr. BREWER. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson
headed toward West Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson?
Mr. BREWER. Beckley.
Mr. BELIN. How far is Beckley from your store?
Mr. BREWER. Two blocks.
Mr. BELIN. Two blocks to the east or to the west?
Mr. BREWER. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and
the next street is Beckley.
Mr. BELIN. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street
is Beckley?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, right.
Mr. BELIN. Is your store located to the north or south side of
Jefferson?
Mr. BREWER. On the north.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BREWER. I looked up and out towards the street and the police
cars----
Mr. BELIN. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all?
Mr. BREWER. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I
looked up and saw the man enter the lobby.
Mr. BELIN. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you
to describe how is--how wide is your store, approximately?
Mr. BREWER. About 20 feet.
Mr. BELIN. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the
sidewalk?
Mr. BREWER. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the
sidewalk, front doors.
Mr. BELIN. The front doors?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show
windows on each side.
Mr. BELIN. This would be, if we were--if we would take a look at the
letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom
part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the
letter, is that correct?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the
sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as
this lobby area?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.
Mr. BELIN. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he
stepped into this lobby area?
Mr. BREWER. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped
in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. Where did he make the U-turn?
Mr. BREWER. At Zangs.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the sirens going away?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where
the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when
they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around
and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you
know who the man was at the time you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Will you describe the man you saw?
Mr. BREWER. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150
pounds is all.
Mr. BELIN. How tall are you, by the way?
Mr. BREWER. Six three.
Mr. BELIN. So you say he was about 5'9"?
Mr. BREWER. About 5'9".
Mr. BELIN. And about 150?
Mr. BREWER. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His
shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. What color of trousers, do you remember?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. Light or dark?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.
Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Light complexioned or dark?
Mr. BREWER. Light complexioned.
Mr. BELIN. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store
there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension
of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward----
Mr. BELIN. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?
Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens.
Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going
away?
Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Going the other way?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How could you tell?
Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do?
Mr. BREWER. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West
Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched
him, and he went into the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that?
Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?
Mr. BREWER. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had
seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before.
And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed
funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been
running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in
your lobby there?
Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared.
Mr. BELIN. He stared?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise?
Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there
staring.
Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you
saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BREWER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the
theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket
to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't.
She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in
there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen
him.
So I walked in and Butch Burroughs----
Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs?
Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and
takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if
he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that
description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and
hadn't seen anybody.
And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits
were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.
I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.
Mr. BELIN. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box
office?
Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the
theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see
him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all
the other buildings.
Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him
purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?
Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box
office.
Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you
walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?
Mr. BREWER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. You just asked her?
Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go
in.
Mr. BELIN. She--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you
remember?
Mr. BREWER. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description
going in.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch?
Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do?
Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage.
First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to
the back and it hadn't been opened.
Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and
a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you
close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to
close it from the inside.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?
Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.
Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked
around but we couldn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see
him?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?
Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark
and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20.
I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?
Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?
Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard
a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him.
But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went
back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.
Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went--Butch went to
the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood
there until the police came.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights
on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?
Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from
the back, toward the back.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know
exactly which row he was in from the back?
Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then
he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there
was no place I could see.
Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin
with?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the
alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on
the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a
couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing
there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was
suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.
And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him
out.
And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I
pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of
the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the
back.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald
stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said,
and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was
Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few
times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man?
Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to
the show.
Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first?
Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the
seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN. When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second
and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward
that, and I saw this gun come up and--in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the
air.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."
And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun
away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting,
still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who
it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they
were hitting him.
Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him
and they took him out.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the
handcuffs on him?
Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald
stopped fighting?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around
and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not
resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen,
whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them
aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all
the people that were in the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you
referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble
or concrete?
Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo.
Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him?
Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.
Mr. BELIN. About how far were you from the front door?
Mr. BREWER. Ten feet.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view?
Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass.
Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store
and watched him.
Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out
in front of your store?
Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture
store. What is the name of that?
Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know--notice how fast this man was walking?
Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual.
Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him?
Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I
don't really know what I was thinking about.
Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the
theatre?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?
Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet--yards.
Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you
do?
Mr. BREWER. Then I walked toward the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average?
Mr. BREWER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the
theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?
Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came
in?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way
bears on this?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked
"Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that
looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?
Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in
the elbows at all, or not?
Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice.
Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?
Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.
Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything
other than "I am not resisting arrest."?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?
Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.
Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before
or after they had the handcuffs on him?
Mr. BREWER. After.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back
and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing
of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington.
Do you have any preference on it?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this.
I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we
first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded
in this written testimony?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as
stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I
just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell
you what I thought the story was?
Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did?
Mr. BREWER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mr. BREWER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take
the time to be here. We thank you very much.
Mr. BREWER. Okay.
TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL
The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. POSTAL. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal.
Mr. BALL. What is your address, please?
Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just
in general.
Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here
to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out
there.
Mr. BALL. Finished high school there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it.
Mr. BALL. In California?
Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and
came back here. I have been here ever since.
Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and
officework in connection with theatres.
Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans,
and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in
the office.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years;
really, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where?
Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas--really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at
the Texas Theatre.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?
Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24.
Mr. BALL. Same theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall?
Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and
then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until
they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box
office and worked until 5.
Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?
Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets.
Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with
school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets,
because it is just straight through.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your
box office open?
Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes
later or something, but that is our regular hours.
Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around
12:45, 1 o'clock?
Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and
ticket.
Mr. BALL. What was his name?
Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.
Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession
counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you
go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and
steps insides, and tears tickets.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we
opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little
transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were
saying again that he had been shot.
Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President
Kennedy was dead or----
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?
Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box
office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official
report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone
wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came
out and said that he was officially dead.
Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office,
did you?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about--it was just about
the time all chaos broke loose.
Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you
opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?
Mrs. POSTAL. Some.
Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate?
Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24.
Mr. BALL. Twenty-four?
Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything
was happening so fast.
Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets?
Mrs. POSTAL. That's right.
Mr. BALL. What was the price of admission?
Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50
cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.
Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.
Mr. BALL. Same price?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see
any activity on the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer
had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on
Thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time I heard the
sirens--police was racing back and forth.
Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark,
"Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect,
so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got
in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were
going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know
it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way,
Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that
particular theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.
Mr. BALL. Its siren on?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.
Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on,
why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see
the man that ducked? This man that you were----
Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--I don't
know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In
other words, he ducked right in.
Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on
his face, and he ducked in.
Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you
seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed,
as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss
went that way to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?
Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man
ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from
the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part
of it.
Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other
way just at the same time.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually--because I stepped out of the box
office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the
box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up
quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was
standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought
a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around
expecting to see him.
Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?
Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of
business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said,
"Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there.
So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he
has to be there." So I told him to go back and check--we have exit
doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked
him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there.
Well, he just had to be.
Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was
just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk,
and he headed for the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. It was closed?
Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?
Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and
Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that
way. He had come from east going west.
Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like--I told him--asked him to check everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he
is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and
examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he
hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody
getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny
about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know
if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running
from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police,
and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."
So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it
was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well,
it fits the description," and I have not--I said I hadn't heard the
description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some
reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the
sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the
description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks
like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this
brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and
medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I
called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and
see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and
what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the
picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So,
seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden,
police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people
in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were
carrying--well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot
because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said,
"I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?"
And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit
used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.
Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you
know, and that--then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there
and----
Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre
that this officer used the phone?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. It was after?
Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They
were running.
Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely.
Mr. BALL. Did you go in?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I--like I said, the public was getting there at that
time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything
and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I
remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like
this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse
(sic) language which--inside. I'd say four or five.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?
Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around
him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.
Mr. BALL. They were?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way.
Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises
or cuts on his face?
Mrs. POSTAL. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see any?
Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the
reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.
Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they
had him.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a
live mob scene, that----
Mr. BALL. Well----
Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said,
"Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out
to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming
profuse language and--"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to
him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to
Oswald--when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I didn't
know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because
he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off,
and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers
was--at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to
try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read
in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car,
and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.
Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station?
Mrs. POSTAL. Police station?
Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the
Thursday following.
Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on
the 4th of December. Would that be about right?
Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday?
Mr. BALL. Yes; I think.
Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.
Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes;
because I know I didn't go down until the following week.
Mr. BALL. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on--out of the
theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said,
"I'm sure we have got our man----"?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed
at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were
bringing Oswald out.
Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do
you have any idea?
Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along
here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is
what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door
there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right
on up in the balcony.
Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people
do then get by him.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says,
"Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going
out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran
up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch
would have seen him.
Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second
row from the----
Mrs. POSTAL. Third.
Mr. BALL. Third?
Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.
Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the
balcony down there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and
right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring
you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.
Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's
seeing him?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.
Mr. BALL. And he could go in?
Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.
Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look
anything like the shirt he had on?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it
is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.
Mr. BALL. Outside his pants?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants?
Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the
corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.
Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out?
Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. You say----
Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and
sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on
to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about
it? Do you want to do that?
Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.
Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.
Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.
Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without
your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.
TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS
The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April
8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please.
Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?
Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I
stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.
Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private
school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.
Mr. BALL. You are now?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now.
Mr. BALL. How old are you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two.
Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work
have you been doing?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as
an apprentice, he is an electrician.
Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I
passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough
points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying
me different.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre,
were you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have?
Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On
weekends I usher.
Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. During the week?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession.
Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day.
Mr. BALL. You do?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And, run the concession?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do,
run them off?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out
and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.
Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you
usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.
Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and
get an admission ticket.
Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to
work?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.
Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?
Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes.
Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and
some officers, didn't you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put
in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in
front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I
was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked
up the stairs real fast.
Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there.
Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.
Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come
through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the
struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a
ticket?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but
I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on
upstairs before I saw him."
Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were
cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a
shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man
came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the
show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the
exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back
out and the police caught him downstairs.
Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?
Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through
the back and the rest of them came in through the front.
Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back
there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them.
Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in
the front?
Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out
to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the
parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any
police officer?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and
that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main
thing.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession.
Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre
to behind the concession?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the
doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is
straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the
shoe salesman; what did you do?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this
door.
Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I
stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out
to the concession.
Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time?
Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the
exit door to the concession?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No.
Mr. BALL. There was not?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the
police?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really
couldn't tell.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when
they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my
rights," and all that.
Mr. BALL. What else did you hear?
Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at
everybody.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both
hands above his head.]
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a
mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and
they put him in the car and went off.
Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him
from the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four.
Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him
out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side.
Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door
into the car.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of
this man, who arrested him?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the
butt of a shotgun?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written
up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your
signature right now. Which do you prefer?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read
it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.
Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too.
Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later.
Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby.
TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL
The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CARROLL. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.
Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?
Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.
Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?
Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months.
Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?
Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High.
Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?
Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at
Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and
on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go
back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on
active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released
from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went
to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them
for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas
Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas
Police Department.
Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the
radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the
special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau,
I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section
and the vice section and the administrative section.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m.
for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that
time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.
Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform
officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one
detective for each block.
Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?
Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four
blocks, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was
walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped
in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV
just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the
office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and
I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city
hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?
Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting
occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1
o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after
I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I
was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement
and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came
back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that
an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information
on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the
phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated
it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I
come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested
permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K.
E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.
Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?
Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau.
He doesn't work in uniform.
Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?
Mr. CARROLL. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman,
but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came
out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas
Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five
blocks away--I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and
ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at
the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of
the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the
head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in
the theatre--I don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and
that was all the conversation I heard from her.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lady was?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I have no idea.
Mr. BALL. Was it the girl who sells tickets?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever met Julia Postal?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. BALL. And where was the lady when you talked to her?
Mr. CARROLL. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went
through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that
he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with
her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the
balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.
Mr. BALL. You and Lyons went in the front door then?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or
rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the
balcony.
Mr. BALL. Was there anyone in the balcony?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, there were people sitting around there.
Mr. BALL. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well,
the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older
people and so we started back down----
Mr. BALL. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?
Mr. CARROLL. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called
and checked about the officer.
Mr. BALL. Who are "they"?
Mr. CARROLL. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--I don't
know who it was at that time.
Mr. BALL. What was the description that he gave you?
Mr. CARROLL. He just gave a general height description and age--just
generally.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what he said.
Mr. CARROLL. I'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and I
can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it
was all--I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a
detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how
he worded it.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me the approximate age--around?
Mr. CARROLL. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something,
like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and
everything like that.
Mr. BALL. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your
memory, I suppose?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; not as to that.
Mr. BALL. You didn't make a note of it?
Mr. CARROLL. It was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir.
Mr. BALL. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see
anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over
the telephone by the dispatcher?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I thought fit it.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to
the lower floor when I heard someone holler something--I believe it was
"Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you
could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and
Lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and I started running and I came up
to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the
left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in
the aisle behind from the left.
Mr. BALL. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle
and then come up on Oswald's right.
Mr. BALL. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen?
Mr. CARROLL. Jerry Hill--Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BALL. And then, who came from behind?
Mr. CARROLL. Ray Hawkins.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"?
Mr. CARROLL. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony.
Mr. BALL. And you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle?
Mr. CARROLL. To the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the
lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through
the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which
row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre.
Mr. BALL. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the
screen?
Mr. CARROLL. It was approximately--close to the center of the second
bunch of seats.
Mr. BALL. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle?
Mr. CARROLL. I saw standing up at the time--Oswald was standing up
there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon
him.
Mr. BALL. Where was McDonald?
Mr. CARROLL. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I
saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side.
Mr. BALL. Were they struggling?
Mr. CARROLL. Everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a
pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked
the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Who had hold of that pistol at that time?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me
and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all,
and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Who put them on him?
Mr. CARROLL. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--I think it
was Ray Hawkins.
Mr. BALL. Put them on from behind?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did----
Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a
shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see
that?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him?
Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that
someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get
him.
Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his
arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.
I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and
detailing it--I believe it was his right arm.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making
sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of
a vigorous scuffle or something like that.
Mr. BALL. What happened then after that?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald
and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I
think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out
through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front
where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in
our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding
next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't
know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he
got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson,
I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the
police station.
Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he
hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe
those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality"
were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he
hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?
Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the
car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't
done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's
wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what
he said.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right
eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here,
somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real
sure.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?
Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car.
Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything
right there, we was trying to get him subdued.
Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud
voice or speaking softly?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult
because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was
pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him,"
or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and
after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said
anything I couldn't actually hear it.
Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep
his mouth shut?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came
out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one
man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his
head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when
we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I
say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two
people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did
not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.
Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car
ask Oswald if he had shot the President?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the
President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think
most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at
the time?
Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he
said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol."
Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You
killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being
asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving
the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as
we could.
Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. The pistol?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt
immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the
theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat?
Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I
think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting
there.
Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I
was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly
from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the
third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right
into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our
interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery
office.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there
were several standing around there, but they would just take him and
hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and
they more or less come in and we would back off.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office.
Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you?
Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson,
Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with
us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't
remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but
he did come down with us.
Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his
ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons
and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and
taken care of.
Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before
you got to the personnel office?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.
Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that?
Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I
don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he
waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the
car.
Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets.
Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?
Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six.
Mr. BALL. Six bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.
Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment
or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?
Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like
bullets.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a
small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to
me like a hammer might have fallen on it.
Mr. BALL. On the firing pin?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might
have fallen on the cap.
Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?
Mr. CARROLL. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a
glass?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was
just a real light indent.
Mr. BALL. That was without a glass?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel
department?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting
there. He was there most of the time.
Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark.
Mr. BALL. When was this done?
Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office.
Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together.
Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald
make the mark on the gun?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray
Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe
Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and
I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or
not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I
know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there
and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen
newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it
was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail
this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time.
It was so jumbled up there.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally?
Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I
had possession of it--possession of the gun.
Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or
the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.
Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had
delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six
bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. With this group of officers?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you examined them?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all.
Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you
have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and
signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it
on to the Commission.
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch
with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down
and look it over.
Mr. CARROLL. All right.
Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED
The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9,
1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CARROLL. I do, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Your name is?
Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.
Mr. BELIN. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by
the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy,
have you not?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Ball take that?
Mr. CARROLL. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About what day was that?
Mr. CARROLL. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day
that would be.
Mr. BELIN. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we
didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then
they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has
been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel
2" barrel with wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this before?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you first see it?
Mr. CARROLL. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw
it?
Mr. CARROLL. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my
direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you happen to be doing at the time?
Mr. CARROLL. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it
pointed in your direction?
Mr. CARROLL. No; I do not.
Mr. BELIN. You just jumped and grabbed it?
Mr. CARROLL. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. Stuck it in my belt.
Mr. BELIN. And then?
Mr. CARROLL. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I
released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BELIN. Sgt. G. L. Hill?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who drove the car down to the station?
Mr. CARROLL. I drove the car.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or
after you started up the car, if you remember?
Mr. CARROLL. After.
Mr. BELIN. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.
Mr. BELIN. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw
on the inside of the butt of the pistol.
Mr. BELIN. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol?
Mr. CARROLL. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the
pistol.
Mr. BELIN. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is
pointing up also, is that correct?
Mr. CARROLL. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials?
Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?
Mr. BELIN. Where were you?
Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police
department.
Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or
wherever he had it, or not?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What day did you put your initials on it?
Mr. CARROLL. November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police
station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that--he
said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."
Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name?
Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely,
but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what
the other one was.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from
the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification.
I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.
Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.
Mr. BELIN. You were driving the car?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the
station?
Mr. CARROLL. No; I didn't hear him say anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an
address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?
Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.
Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what?
Mr. CARROLL. Later that day.
Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the
city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed
this or not, that in any way might be relevant?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we
took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left
him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer.
Mr. BELIN. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and
then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it
was or was not loaded?
Mr. CARROLL. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun.
Mr. BELIN. How many bullets were in it?
Mr. CARROLL. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I
recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second
trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you
first testified.
You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign
it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive.
Mr. CARROLL. I will sign it.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you will be contacted.
Mr. CARROLL. All right, fine.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON
The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April
3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. HUTSON. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?
Mr. HUTSON. Thomas A. Hutson.
Mr. BELIN. And your occupation?
Mr. HUTSON. Police officer for the city of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Hutson?
Mr. HUTSON. Thirty-five years.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?
Mr. HUTSON. Nine years.
Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Dallas?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. High school?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Graduate of high school or not?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What school?
Mr. HUTSON. Forest Avenue High School.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got out of high school?
Mr. HUTSON. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general
office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk.
Mr. BELIN. How long was that?
Mr. HUTSON. That was in 1947, in July--that is in January of 1947, and
I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the
U.S. Army.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you serve in the Army?
Mr. HUTSON. Four years.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
Mr. HUTSON. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from
there I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I
joined them in October of 1948.
I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of
1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort
Sam Houston.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do, basically, in Germany?
Mr. HUTSON. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I
was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing
mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course,
you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway.
Mr. BELIN. You got back to the States?
Mr. HUTSON. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston,
Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and
there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics.
Mr. BELIN. And eventually you were discharged?
Mr. HUTSON. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there--this was
during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett,
Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was
discharged in July of 1952.
Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HUTSON. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas &
Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?
Mr. HUTSON. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year,
and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the
service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the service station business?
Mr. HUTSON. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold
my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the
Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. What year?
Mr. HUTSON. 1955.
Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the
fall of 1963?
Mr. HUTSON. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer.
Mr. BELIN. Would that have included November 22, 1963?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; it would.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with the
Presidential motorcade on November 22?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. HUTSON. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood
Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street.
Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do?
Mr. HUTSON. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade
passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed?
Mr. HUTSON. Right.
Mr. BELIN. To direct traffic?
Mr. HUTSON. I was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back
that was surging in the street.
Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the
signs?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. HUTSON. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19,
involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time?
Mr. HUTSON. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the
signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United
States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this
location.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. HUTSON. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository
and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in
front of the main entrance.
Mr. BELIN. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main
entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do at the bottom of the steps?
Mr. HUTSON. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter,
and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two
officers.
Mr. BELIN. You were there with two more officers?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. HUTSON. They were at the top of the stairs at the door.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know the names of these officers?
Mr. HUTSON. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J.
B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman.
Mr. BELIN. Were those officers there when you got there?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were they motorcycle officers or not?
Mr. HUTSON. Solo motorcycle officers.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?
Mr. HUTSON. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best judgment?
Mr. HUTSON. Thirty minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you leave?
Mr. HUTSON. I was relieved by my sergeant.
Mr. BELIN. Did you let people go in that said they were employees
within the building?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused
to let anyone enter except police officers.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone leave the building?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was your back to the building?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I
assume?
Mr. HUTSON. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there.
There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens
coming in, that is what brought the big crowd.
Mr. BELIN. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or
anything from the building?
Mr. HUTSON. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from
duty?
Mr. HUTSON. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come
on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a
police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on
shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that
they weren't sure on the exact location.
Mr. BELIN. Was this at about the time you were being released?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston,
did he say Elm and Houston?
Mr. HUTSON. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you
were on Main at that time?
Mr. HUTSON. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I
made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of
time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after
you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head, yes?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard
the first notice over the police radio?
Mr. HUTSON. No, I don't.
Mr. BELIN. At times you were working away from your police radio while
you were picking up the signs, is that correct?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance.
Mr. BELIN. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak
Cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?
Mr. HUTSON. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. Is that Oak Cliff?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?
Mr. HUTSON. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the
triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?
Mr. HUTSON. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East
Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind
10th Street where the officer had been shot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car
with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was
riding in the back seat.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you get inside the squad car?
Mr. HUTSON. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't
get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know
whether I would be able to start and go or not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HUTSON. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled
into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.
Mr. BELIN. That is a Mobil gas station?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of
the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the
telephone to call in.
I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I
mean their number to call in.
At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher
give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at
the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the
officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came
running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told
them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the
suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.
We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to
Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library
for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into
the basement of the library.
At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we
returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on
East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson,
the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering
the Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was?
Mr. HUTSON. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location,
including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at
Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out
from the basement with their hands over their head.
One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked
him. A sergeant was there.
Mr. BELIN. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him.
Mr. BELIN. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding
west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East
Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered
the Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any
recovery of any items of clothing?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did that occur?
Mr. HUTSON. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the
house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the
Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white
jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it
up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The
original description was that he was wearing a white jacket.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of jacket was it?
Mr. HUTSON. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me.
Mr. BELIN. Was it the zipper type?
Mr. HUTSON. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards
away from the officer who picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard
about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. HUTSON. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He
didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on
Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn
to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way
street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of
the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of
the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors,
Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door
to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.
I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and
not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am
not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at
the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get
in."
I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description
and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for.
Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me,
and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door.
We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there
by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the
center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle
from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the
front in the center section.
Mr. BELIN. You were on the right center or the left center?
Mr. HUTSON. I was on the left center.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right
center aisle?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center
aisle.
Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand
up and searched them while I covered.
As soon as they were searched--well, I left out that part about the
number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I
walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the
lower floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you count them?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir; I counted them.
Mr. BELIN. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed
toward the front of the center section, right?
Mr. HUTSON. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then where were the other five?
Mr. HUTSON. There was two sitting in the center section near the front,
and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats
over, I am not sure whether that was the third row--I put it in my
report----
Mr. BELIN. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated
December 3, 1963?
Mr. HUTSON. The third row from the back and the fifth seat.
Mr. BELIN. Was there another person there?
Mr. HUTSON. That was another person.
Mr. BELIN. Who was that?
Mr. HUTSON. That was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't know it at the time?
Mr. HUTSON. I didn't know who it was; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then who else?
Mr. HUTSON. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the
theatre was another man.
Mr. BELIN. In the back of the last row of the center section?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That accounts for four people. Where were the others?
Mr. HUTSON. There were two young boys.
Mr. BELIN. Where were they?
Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back
row.
Mr. BELIN. Right center or left center?
Mr. HUTSON. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left
center section.
Mr. BELIN. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other
people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the
rear?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the rear.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you
count?
Mr. HUTSON. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many
policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards
the front of the center section? Were they searched?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. HUTSON. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the
theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the
right center section aisle.
As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he
approached this person. I approached from the row behind.
Mr. BELIN. You approached from the second row from the back?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you see happen?
Mr. HUTSON. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became
engaged in a struggle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see who hit whom first?
Mr. HUTSON. No.
Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head, no.
Mr. HUTSON. No, I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre,
but it was dark.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?
Mr. HUTSON. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and
this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on
the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him
off.
Mr. BELIN. This person was right-handed?
You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of
McDonald's face?
Mr. HUTSON. Right.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm
and put it around this person's throat.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was
originally sitting in.
At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that
the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand
and held it.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold
this person's right hand.
Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a
revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right
hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.
Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand,
on the suspect's right hand?
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this
person's right hand.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat,
up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of snapping sound was it?
Mr. HUTSON. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol
snaps.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard
the snap?
Mr. HUTSON. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.
Mr. BELIN. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that
direction.
Mr. BELIN. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen?
Mr. HUTSON. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?
Mr. HUTSON. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the
screen.
Mr. BELIN. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?
Mr. HUTSON. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could
have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking
up in the row of seats in front.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the
suspect say anything?
Mr. HUTSON. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything?
Mr. HUTSON. No.
Mr. BELIN. You are shaking your head no.
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened then?
Mr. HUTSON. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer
McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on
the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously,
we decided to handcuff him.
We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still
resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this
time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back
behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to
handcuff him.
At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were
handcuffing.
Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of
here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was
rushed out of the theatre.
I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry
Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter?
Mr. HUTSON. Oswald?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I never did see him again.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know this was Oswald?
Mr. HUTSON. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and
went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell
them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and
at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is,
he was probably the suspect that shot the officer.
Mr. BELIN. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with
the assassination?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did the police stop hitting him?
Mr. HUTSON. I never did ever see them hit him.
Mr. BELIN. You never saw any police hit him?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of about this
incident that you haven't related here?
While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing
here for a minute and I will be back.
Anything else, Officer, you can think of?
Mr. HUTSON. I can't think of anything else right now.
Mr. BELIN. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be
a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw?
Mr. HUTSON. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the
officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on
the lot.
Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up?
Mr. HUTSON. Approximately 25 yards.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?
Mr. HUTSON. I heard something--someone make the statement that that
looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not
wearing it now.
Mr. BELIN. Where is this Texaco station?
Mr. HUTSON. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the
intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of
Crawford and Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when
it was found?
Mr. HUTSON. One-half block.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. What happened to the jacket?
Mr. HUTSON. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his
possession.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he gave it to?
Mr. HUTSON. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?
Mr. HUTSON. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house
with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man,
but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was
when the officer had it.
Mr. BELIN. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this
before, or not?
Mr. HUTSON. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we
arrested in the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and
read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let
the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire
to do either one?
Mr. HUTSON. I will go ahead and sign it.
Mr. BELIN. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas
Police Department, is that correct?
Mr. HUTSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and
please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in
charge.
Mr. HUTSON. All right, nice to have seen you all.
TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER
The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WALKER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?
Mr. WALKER. C. T. Walker.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?
Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. WALKER. I am 31 years old.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. WALKER. One child. One girl.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. WALKER. Five years in July.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do prior to that?
Mr. WALKER. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.--I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was
born in Slaton, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mr. WALKER. Slaton, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?
Mr. WALKER. Stephenville, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Did you you go to high school there?
Mr. WALKER. I didn't finish high school.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you finish?
Mr. WALKER. Tenth grade.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. WALKER. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in
Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?
Mr. WALKER. Approximately 2 years.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic work.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. WALKER. I worked--I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my
uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.
Mr. BELIN. After that what did you do?
Mr. WALKER. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and
worked there 5-1/2 years.
Mr. BELIN. Doing what?
Mr. WALKER. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. WALKER. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. When was that?
Mr. WALKER. 1959, July the 27th.
Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.
Mr. BELIN. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or
so on that day?
Mr. WALKER. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.
Mr. BELIN. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there?
Mr. WALKER. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about
the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I
didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news
broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.
Mr. BELIN. Were you cruising alone at that time?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime
to work alone or in pairs?
Mr. WALKER. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and
night.
Mr. BELIN. Day and night?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?
Mr. WALKER. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third
platoon, they work two men.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4
in the afternoon?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Ever work with him at all?
Mr. WALKER. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same
substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite
well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him
there.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return
to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around
shortly after you heard the news?
Mr. WALKER. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or
might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.
Mr. BELIN. You mean a block away from the fire station?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you called in?
Mr. WALKER. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They
have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been
shot.
I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to
my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.
And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went
on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.
Mr. BELIN. So you went on your own where?
Mr. WALKER. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. That is at Elm and Houston?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?
Mr. WALKER. Right in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got your car parked?
Mr. WALKER. Went inside the building.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go inside?
Mr. WALKER. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway
there and I stayed in there.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. WALKER. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly
searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs,
so I didn't go upstairs.
Mr BELIN. What did you do when you were downstairs?
Mr. WALKER. We were checking persons as they came in the building.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?
Mr. WALKER. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.
Mr. BELIN. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you
got down there?
Mr. WALKER. Ten or fifteen minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Was the building sealed off at that time?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. WALKER. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had
been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up
to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the
car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.
In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where
Officer Tippit was killed.
Mr. BELIN. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was still there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car
or not?
Mr. WALKER. I didn't really look real close.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witnesses there?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't get out.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. WALKER. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street
that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at
Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the
lawn of the library.
I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson,
and he was even south of Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?
Mr. WALKER. He was over a block.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person
fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of
the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the
back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then
surrounded the library.
Mr. BELIN. You were not the one that put out the first description of
the suspect they sought?
Mr. WALKER. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.
Mr. BELIN. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as
to what you were looking for?
Mr. WALKER. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored
coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. About 30 years old, I think he said.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?
Mr. WALKER. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the
other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered
everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the upstairs?
Mr. WALKER. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get
to it.
Mr. BELIN. Something like a basement?
Mr. WALKER. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone
came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that
he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's
see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I
soon determined he wasn't the one.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. WALKER. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again.
I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident
that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising
up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long
white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the
church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence
there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he
was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I
said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I
didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked
at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised
up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course
that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."
I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."
Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.
Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area,
when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed
to be at the theatre on Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the Texas Theatre?
Mr. WALKER. Texas Theatre; yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. WALKER. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived
there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up
on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but
he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And
there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself,
and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man
told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person
that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats
several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had
seen him do, or not?
Mr. WALKER. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked,
kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into
the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?
Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.
Mr. BELIN. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?
Mr. WALKER. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.
Mr. BELIN. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?
Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the
back of the theatre.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the
back of the theatre?
Mr. WALKER. I walked--McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he
walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I
jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we
started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he
was slightly in front of me.
Mr. BELIN. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M.
N. McDonald and yourself?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. The three of you came in from the back?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just
don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. Those are the three you remember?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right
center or the left center aisle?
Mr. WALKER. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.
Mr. BELIN. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle
that you were going up?
Mr. WALKER. Be the far left aisle, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. Next to the wall?
Mr. WALKER. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a
row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another
row of seats.
Mr. BELIN. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which
would be to the left of the center row of seats?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Okay; just tell what happened.
Mr. WALKER. There were two white males sitting approximately in the
center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what
point they come on.
Mr. BELIN. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?
Mr. WALKER. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald,
who turned out to be Oswald--I didn't know at that time it was him--and
two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the
seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe
it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.
Mr. BELIN. You were coming up the north aisle?
Mr. WALKER. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of
the show.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recall then a total of six people?
Mr. WALKER. That is all I recall seeing.
Mr. BELIN. The people behind the man that you later found out to be
Oswald, how far were they behind?
Mr. WALKER. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.
Mr. BELIN. In what row were they?
Mr. WALKER. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to
the last.
Mr. BELIN. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. WALKER. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the
back.
Mr. BELIN. Fourth or fifth row from the back?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting
together in the center?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You came up and approached those people?
Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached them from the----
Mr. BELIN. Right?
Mr. WALKER. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center
aisle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn?
Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that?
Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand
up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the
holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one
on the right.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at other people?
Mr. WALKER. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I
didn't know who they were.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. WALKER. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down,
and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we
approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him
from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle,
had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?
Mr. WALKER. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him
slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.
Mr. BELIN. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald
approached Oswald from Oswald's right?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?
Mr. WALKER. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from
McDonald's aisle.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what happened?
Mr. WALKER. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly,
I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. WALKER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?
Mr. WALKER. No; he faced McDonald.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your
hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I
call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald
put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and
McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the
right hand.
Mr. BELIN. Looking in whose?
Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of
his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand
first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and
Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his
arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back
over the seat.
At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know
whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what,
but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw,
Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had
came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you
see by his belt?
Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you
see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it
out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.
Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not
he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was
a detective.
Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate
by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an
awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.
The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and
pointed out at about a 45° angle.
I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up
behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and
the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed
slightly toward the screen, what I call.
Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?
Mr. WALKER. A real light click, real light.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a click of the seat?
Mr. WALKER. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell,
and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was
moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And
some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."
And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people
around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it
appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from
everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. Okay, what happened then?
Mr. WALKER. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm
around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."
He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."
I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and
Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his
right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and
turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.
And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and
we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had
came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.
He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."
Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to
whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging
blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hit Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did Hutson hit Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting
arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?
Mr. WALKER. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back
there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."
Mr. BELIN. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?
Mr. WALKER. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I
protest this police brutality."
People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We
want him."
Mr. BELIN. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination
of the President?
Mr. WALKER. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after,
I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. When you were after him, you were after him for what?
Mr. WALKER. For the killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right
door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I.
We sat in the back seat with him.
Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know
who they were, that rode down, too.
There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.
Mr. BELIN. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until
the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?
Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall, no.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police
station?
Mr. WALKER. As we were driving down there, yes; he said----
Mr. BELIN. Who was he?
Mr. WALKER. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this
all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying,
"I know my rights."
And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest
because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police
officer.
And he said, "Police officer been killed?"
And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."
And I said, "You might find out."
And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."
And that is all I recall.
Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him,
or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he
did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is,
he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been
to jail.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?
Mr. WALKER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?
Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on?
Mr. WALKER. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair
of black pants.
Mr. BELIN. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?
Mr. WALKER. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like
that.
Mr. BELIN. What color hair?
Mr. WALKER. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?
Mr. WALKER. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.
Mr. BELIN. Some shade of brown?
Mr. WALKER. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in
my opinion.
Mr. BELIN. Was it some shade of brown?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; the best I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?
Mr. WALKER. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit
excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can
recall going down.
Mr. BELIN. After you got down there, what did you do with him?
Mr. WALKER. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went
back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.
I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with
him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed
with his hands behind him.
I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with
a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of card it was?
Mr. WALKER. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"
Mr. BELIN. He--had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. I believe he had.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."
And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill
the officer?"
And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because
you were scared of being arrested for something?"
And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared
now?"
Mr. BELIN. Did he look like he was scared?
Mr. WALKER. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a
bit nervous.
Mr. BELIN. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during
that time that he was with you?
Mr. WALKER. No; I can't recall.
Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you
had with him?
Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and
some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald
had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me
two more." Or something like that.
But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the
time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.
I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened,
and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.
Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald
had, did you?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details
of the arrest.
Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of
Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief"
letter.
Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did
put what conversation we had.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you
said to him?
Mr. WALKER. Not that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out
he was a suspect in the assassination?
Mr. WALKER. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that
he was the suspect.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual
killing of the President.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be
relevant?
Mr. WALKER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this
deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long had you known Officer Tippit?
Mr. WALKER. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I
first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and
worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there
all the time.
I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training
and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for,
I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.
Mr. BELIN. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no
call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call
for--I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the
suspect in the assassination?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you
have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected
his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?
Mr. WALKER. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was
suspicious of him as a suspect.
Mr. BELIN. Why do you believe that?
Mr. WALKER. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made
good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally
good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above
normal.
Mr. BELIN. Why do you think he stopped this man?
Mr. WALKER. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he
probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he
would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the
assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?
Mr. WALKER. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and
it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he
fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it
is the suspect. You just don't do it.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22,
or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting
or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the
President's investigation?
Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while
until I got off.
Mr. BELIN. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?
Mr. WALKER. That would have been Saturday.
Mr. BELIN. Or did you work on Saturday?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any
investigation of any kind.
Mr. BELIN. Were you going back to accident investigation?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with
the assassination after November 22?
Mr. WALKER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can
think of at this time, Officer Walker?
Mr. WALKER. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just
don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I
can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high
points of it.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?
Mr. WALKER. I don't recall. I think he said--I know he was repeating,
"I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he got the gun?
Mr. WALKER. No, he didn't say where he got the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that it was his gun?
Mr. WALKER. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said
he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed
it was his gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come
down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for
your cooperation.
Mr. WALKER. Okay. I know you've got a problem here.
Mr. BELIN. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the
deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to
either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing
of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to
us in Washington?
Mr. WALKER. I will go ahead and sign it.
Mr. BELIN. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the
Dallas Police Department, I assume.
Mr. WALKER. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now?
Mr. BELIN. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to
read it or have her send it to us directly?
Mr. WALKER. Do I have to come, down here to read it here?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, you have to come down and read it here.
Mr. WALKER. I will come down and read it and sign it.
Mr. BELIN. All right, fine. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL
The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HILL. I do.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name.
Mr. HILL. Gerald Lynn Hill.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. HILL. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. HILL. Since March 7, 1955.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Sergeant Hill?
Mr. HILL. Thirty-four.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mr. HILL. Ferris, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?
Mr. HILL. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. HILL. Went through high school.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of high school?
Mr. HILL. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from
January of 1948 until April of 1954.
At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the
paper.
Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and
worked for them until March the 21st, 1958.
The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police
academy for the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the police department?
Mr. HILL. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my
notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the
police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the
police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms
with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they
worked out an agreement with me.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you on duty?
Mr. HILL. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol
division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating
applicants for the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Where was this?
Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the
personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining
to the President's trip or any other function other than the
investigation of police applicants.
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall?
Mr. HILL. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or--excuse
me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west
on Main.
I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the
third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R.
Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets
watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some
facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had
seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we
were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe
is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been
shot at Main and Lamar.
Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later--she just
made the statement and walked out--and a minute later Captain Westbrook
said, "She wasn't kidding."
And I said, "When she you mean?"
And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face."
And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to
the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third
floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the
dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the
intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down
in the press room.
I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure
was Inspector Sawyer--but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't
say for sure--saying we think we have located the building where the
shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.
At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain
that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets.
The captain said, "Go ahead and go."
And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told
him to get on down there.
I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and
saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he
was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular."
And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street."
"The President has been shot."
We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named
Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the
basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told
him the President was shot.
And he said, "Where are you going?"
And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came
from."
And he said, "Could I go with you?"
So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what
the number was.
We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left,
went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as
Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson
Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the
right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston,
jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.
I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building
properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."
And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"
And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."
About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from
homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service
bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy
sheriffs came up.
Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on
the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.
Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I
said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?
Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us
as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.
So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they
would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of
us to go to the top floor and work down.
We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the
elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to
seven and shook it down.
At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed
officer up there.
Mr. BELIN. You went to the top floor of the building?
Mr. HILL. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up,
or did you climb?
Mr. HILL. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost
sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the
elevator went no further?
Mr. HILL. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost
positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't
particularly take notice.
But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of
flights because the elevator didn't go all the way.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you take this elevator?
Mr. HILL. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned
to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight
elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. You took a passenger elevator?
Mr. HILL. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?
Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and
if this was on the fifth, we walked through--there is a little office
section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large
room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway
would take us, which would have been on seven.
In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder
leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used
mainly for storage.
Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up
it.
The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.
So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor,
and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from
there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and
I went down to sixth.
I started to the right side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----
Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.
Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?
Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here
it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been
stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the
window.
Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were
stacked near the east side of the window.
Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what
side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?
Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It
would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building
facing south.
Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or
the second window, or what, if you remember?
Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to
the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short
time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was,
because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a
three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody
specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a
sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of
this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were
two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for
concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which
appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I
wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended,
it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches
thick.
Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the
south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of
the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner,
were three spent shells.
This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At
this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let
anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another
window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled
down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or
not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, I asked
the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure
that the crime lab was en route.
When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator
moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch
the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were
coming up on the elevator.
I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out
the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure
the crime lab was en route.
About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab
was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the
area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth
floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene
so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All
right."
And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector
Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building
across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and
Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay
any attention.
I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt.
C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that
day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what we
wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?
Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could
have been 19.
Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.
Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant
District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been
standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the
police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember
right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the
400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the
voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.
At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this
would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location
from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible
suspect in the assassination.
With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160
pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of
bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we
have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that
detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go
with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer
had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also.
In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at
this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding
with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had
actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there.
We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to
go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we
passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a
police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital.
We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car
parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool
of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he
said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160
to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown
bushy hair."
At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad
105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe,
and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez.
I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many
witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to
start checking the area.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember
the name of the person that gave you the description?
Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.
Mr. BELIN. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any
kind?
Mr. HILL. No; they had not. This came much later.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead if you would, please.
Mr. HILL. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came
up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over
into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking
lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--and taken off his jacket.
Mr. BELIN. You turned this man over to Poe, too?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer
Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32
p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I
believe? Your radio home station?
Mr. HILL. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that
saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson,
behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here."
"Several squads check out." Was that you?
Mr. HILL. That was Owens.
Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all?
Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens.
Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time?
Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?
Mr. HILL. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went
around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the
first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred,
and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on
Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the
north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand
furniture.
By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man
running towards these houses.
At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was
there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident
investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple
more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front
door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest
to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody
was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or
outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.
Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been
the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked,
both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on
this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and
I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit.
And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got
back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his
car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to
me with a Winston cigarette package.
Mr. BELIN. Who was this?
Mr. HILL. This was Poe.
Mr. BELIN. You went back to the Tippit scene?
Mr. HILL. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that
contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had
pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped
these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put
them in the Winston package.
I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for
him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for
evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there,
or to homicide.
The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to
a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street
in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go
in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees
inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen
anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible
places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them,
nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the
doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to.
An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that
time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call
came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HILL. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a
right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as
close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two
or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the
back.
They said, "We got the building completely covered off."
I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the
theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard
the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over
the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony.
We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been
also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling
to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe
just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the
balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and
here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man.
There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and
none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of
the man that shot Tippit.
I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and
stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the
ground. He said, "Did you find anything?"
And I said, "Not up here."
He said, "Have you checked the roof?"
There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the
top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for
you." And he started up it.
The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't
overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him
in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the
west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to
the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which
came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the
lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper.
Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west
door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is
that correct?
Mr. HILL. Right.
Mr. BELIN. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed
north, and then you had to turn to the right?
Mr. HILL. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come
down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down
the north stairway.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you
go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are
facing the screen, you are facing roughly east?
Mr. HILL. Right side of the theatre would have been south.
Mr. BELIN. South as you face the screen. All right, now.
Mr. HILL. So I went through the north lower door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HILL. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have
been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the
back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling
with a white male.
I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before
I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."
I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately
behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side
of the suspect from me in the same aisle.
Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front
of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and
down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't
recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then
Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both
in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various
intervals while all this was going on.
We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him
and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him."
And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel,
didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he
said, "Yes."
And I said, "Let's get them."
And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him.
Mr. BELIN. You said you were working in plainclothes?
Mr. HILL. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any hat on?
Mr. HILL. Yes; I did have a hat.
Mr. BELIN. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition
Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when
we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre.
That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or
right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize any people in there?
Mr. HILL. This would have been the suspect [pointing].
Mr. BELIN. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the
profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or
lower than the others?
Mr. HILL. Lower than the other people in the picture.
Mr. BELIN. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right.
Mr. HILL. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me.
Mr. BELIN. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the
suspect?
Mr. HILL. That is Detective Paul Bentley.
Mr. BELIN. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears
to have his hands----
Mr. HILL. That would be C. T. Walker.
Mr. BELIN. Then there is another person that is in the extreme
left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is?
Mr. HILL. Capt. W. R. Westbrook.
Mr. BELIN. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is?
Mr. HILL. I have no idea.
Mr. BELIN. That is to the left?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is
that anything you can recognize?
Mr. HILL. Not from that; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead, sir.
You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect?
Mr. HILL. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later
in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI
agent----
Mr. BELIN. Would it be Barrett?
Mr. HILL. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his first name?
Mr. HILL. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain
Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire
exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came
over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of
there as soon as possible.
And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to
stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the
actual scene where the arrest was made.
Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent
happened to be there at the time?
Mr. HILL. I heard later, and--but not actually to my own knowledge,
that he was riding with Captain Westbrook.
To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out
from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the
incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly
before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HILL. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would
have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to
the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the
north section of the theatre.
And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in
front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons
was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear.
I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side.
Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side.
At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any
newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a
man shooting movies.
Mr. BELIN. Movies?
Mr. HILL. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a
short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about
him.
We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a
minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west
door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the
officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where
nobody got to us or to the suspect.
But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We
ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on.
Mr. BELIN. Any other calls from the crowd?
Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion,
but we kept moving.
Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you
were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process
of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell
something along the effect, "I've got him."
Mr. HILL. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements?
First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement
of any kind?
Mr. HILL. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically
recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for
a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put
it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it."
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember?
Mr. HILL. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no.
As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if
we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in
the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald
or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will
keep on calling him the suspect, started making statements about "I
want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you
doing this to me."
As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing
the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling
words similar to, "Typical police brutality."
And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there
to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and
commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until
we got in the car.
Mr. BELIN. All right, let me stop there before you testify about
getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement
prior to getting into the car?
Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying
to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?"
Mr. HILL. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect?
Mr. HILL. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that
Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click.
Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward,
off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the
position, was probably the second officer to him.
In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and
then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that
order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him
from using the gun.
Mr. BELIN. What did you reply to this question?
Mr. HILL. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the
interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the
scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that
you would hear it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hit the suspect at all?
Mr. HILL. No; I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else hit the suspect?
Mr. HILL. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a
small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise
on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick,
to see this done, I did not see.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as
"Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line?
Mr. HILL. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a--you want----
Mr. BELIN. Let's stop there before we get in the car.
Mr. HILL. There were some statements made in the car similar to this,
in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time
in the theatre or from the theatre to the car.
Mr. BELIN. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you
hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle?
Mr. HILL. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or
"Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him."
But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called
anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a
police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did
not hear any.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer?
Mr. HILL. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HILL. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly
about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I
didn't actually identify any direct blows.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left
arm flailing?
Mr. HILL. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free
himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually
hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his
hand, I did not.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition
Exhibit B." State if you know what this is.
Mr. HILL. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the
theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the
aisle that divided the two sections.
Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I
don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize anything?
Mr. HILL. There are three people in this picture that I recognize.
The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground
looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker.
The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a
T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face
practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to
us as Lee Harvey Oswald.
And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth
is Detective Paul Bentley.
There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is
apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and
his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to
admit I think it is me.
And there is a faint image there, if you get the light--that is what I
am trying to see--very faintly--if we had a--yes, that is going to be
me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle.
Mr. BELIN. If you hold it a little bit to your right?
Mr. HILL. Yes; that is going to be me.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the
extreme left of the person with the helmet?
Mr. HILL. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to
identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L.
E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification.
Mr. BELIN. Okay, sergeant.
By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the
picture.
Do you remember what else he had on?
Mr. HILL. He had on a dark--I don't recall it being a solid
brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark
trousers. This I specifically remember.
Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?
Mr. HILL. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. HILL. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking
lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't
recall actually seeing this jacket.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the
time you got to the car?
Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as
we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out
things.
If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him.
And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I
will ask you to state if you know what this is?
Mr. HILL. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and
it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with
the suspect.
Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. HILL. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked
right here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police
Car No. 151, which appears in the picture?
Mr. HILL. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as
you remember it?
Mr. HILL. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each
side of the theatre entrance.
Mr. BELIN. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out?
Mr. HILL. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to
the car was open at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Who opened it?
Mr. HILL. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been
left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us
entered.
Mr. BELIN. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led
the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people
there?
Mr. HILL. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to
contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we
came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved
between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was
probably about 200.
Mr. BELIN. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car
that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember
now?
Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time
you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the
suspect in the car.
Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door
of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T.
Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right
rear.
Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat
on that side.
Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley,
Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?
Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from
the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.
Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove
the vehicle.
Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which
he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the
theatre.
Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you?
Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"
Mr. BELIN. When did he do that?
Mr. HILL. As soon as he handed it to me.
Mr. BELIN. When was that?
Mr. HILL. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his
belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already
in the car and seated.
Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission
Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?
Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2"
barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been
blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?
Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't
recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is
the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.
Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.
Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will
identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you
describe it any more fully?
Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun
in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last
name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.
Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there?
Mr. HILL. I did.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?
Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of
Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police
department.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched
your name on it?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?
Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.
Mr. BELIN. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143,
is that correct?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is what it says.
Mr. BELIN. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or
something "C15" on it, too, is that right?
Mr. HILL. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that
is.
Mr. BELIN. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?
Mr. HILL. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in
the car, he handed this gun to you?
Mr. HILL. Right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was
said and what was done?
Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained
and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an
indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There
were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape
on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half
inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue
on the jacket of the shell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those?
Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them.
Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on
the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the
initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a
dash behind it.
Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is
the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the
H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my
presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third
floor.
Mr. BELIN. What is that?
Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that
was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was
taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.
Mr. BELIN. When was it removed?
Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until
we arrived at the station.
Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun?
Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your
initials?
Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed
them.
Mr. BELIN. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?
Mr. HILL. That is a live round.
Mr. BELIN. For what caliber?
Mr. HILL. A .38 caliber.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked
Q-177.
Mr. HILL. That appears to be Q-177.
It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH
running together, the initials CK on it also.
It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is
a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name
H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit
145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I
identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.
Was this also something that you took out?
Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I
believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that
identification.
I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.
I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?
Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to
be Q-79.
It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's
near the identification number that are legible.
And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is
apparently on some of the others.
Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that?
Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the
shell.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that?
Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored
coating on the lead inside the bullet.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78.
Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification
mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the
shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with
which I marked it.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80.
Mr. HILL. Okay.
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