Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (06 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. VI (OF 15) ***
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ VI
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI:
Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark,
Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins,
Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin,
Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt,
Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President
Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis
Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended
Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge,
Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C.
Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher;
Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson,
who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack
Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C.
Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell,
Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis
Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G.
Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger
D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers,
Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer,
D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who
were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A.
Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens,
Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty,
Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns,
employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William
W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning
Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides,
and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit
crime scene.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Charles J. Carrico 1
Malcolm Oliver Perry 7
William Kemp Clark 18
Robert Nelson McClelland 30
Charles Rufus Baxter 39
Marion Thomas Jenkins 45
Ronald Coy Jones 51
Don Teel Curtis 57
Fouad A. Bashour 61
Gene Coleman Akin 63
Paul Conrad Peters 68
Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72
Jackie Hansen Hunt 76
Kenneth Everett Salyer 80
Martin G. White 82
Robert Shaw 83
Charles Francis Gregory 95
George T. Shires 104
Richard Brooks Dulany 113
Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115
Jane Carolyn Wester 120
Henrietta M. Ross 123
R. J. Jimison 125
Darrell C. Tomlimson 128
Diana Hamilton Bowron 134
Margaret M. Henchliffe 139
Doris Mae Nelson 143
Charles Jack Price 148
Malcolm O. Couch 153
Tom C. Dillard 162
James Robert Underwood 167
James N. Crawford 171
Mary Ann Mitchell 175
Barbara Rowland 177
Ronald B. Fischer 191
Robert Edwin Edwards 200
Jean Lollis Hill 205
Austin L. Miller 223
Frank E. Reilly 227
Earle V. Brown 231
Royce G. Skelton 236
S. M. Holland 239
J. W. Foster 248
J. C. White 253
Joe E. Murphy 256
Roger D. Craig 260
George W. Rackley, Sr 273
James Elbert Romack 277
Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284
B. J. Martin 289
Bobby W. Hargis 293
Clyde A. Haygood 296
E. D. Brewer 302
D. V. Harkness 308
J. Herbert Sawyer 315
Gerald Dalton Henslee 325
William H. Shelley 327
Nat A. Pinkston 334
Billy Nolan Lovelady 336
Frankie Kaiser 341
Charles Douglas Givens 345
Troy Eugene West 356
Danny G. Arce 363
Joe R. Molina 368
Jack Edwin Dougherty 373
Eddie Piper 382
Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386
Geneva L. Hine 393
Doris Burns 397
Mary E. Bledsoe 400
William W. Whaley 428
Earlene Roberts 431
Domingo Benavides 444
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Bowron Exhibit No.: Page
2 138
3 138
4 138
Brewer Exhibit A 304
Brown Exhibit A 236
Davis Exhibit No.:
1 457
2 463
3 465
Dillard Exhibit:
A 166
B 166
C 166
D 166
Dougherty Exhibit:
A 382
B 382
C 382
Edwards Exhibit A 205
Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198
Foster Exhibit:
A 249
B 253
Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73
Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100
Hill Exhibit No. 5 223
Holland Exhibit:
A 242
B 242
C 243
D 245
Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50
Jones Exhibit No. 1 55
Kaiser Exhibit:
A 344
B 344
C 344
Miller Exhibit A 227
Molina Exhibit A 368
Murphy Exhibit A 260
Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147
Piper Exhibit A 386
Price Exhibit No.
2 148
3 149
4 149
5 150
6 150
7 150
8 150
9 150
10 151
11 151
12 151
13 151
14 151
15 151
16 151
17 151
18 151
19 151
20 151
21 151
22 151
23 151
24 151
25 151
26 152
27 152
28 152
29 152
30 152
31 152
32 152
33 152
34 152
35 152
Reilly Exhibit A 231
Sawyer Exhibit:
A 318
B 322
Skelton Exhibit A 239
Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134
Whaley Exhibit A 430
White Exhibit A 254
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO
The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is
present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that
his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of
the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination
of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases
of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland
Memorial Hospital.
Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which
he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary
statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CARRICO. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. CARRICO. Physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.;
received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State
College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961,
and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to
1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by
my residency here.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will
qualify me for my boards in general surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at
Parkland Hospital?
Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery
service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for
evaluation for admission to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock
noon?
Dr. CARRICO. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the
clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these
people and evaluate them for admission and treatment.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the
way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In which President Kennedy was involved?
Dr. CARRICO At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these
patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and
was on his way to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when
you received that call?
Dr. CARRICO. This was probably shortly after 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that call was received did the
President's party actually arrive at Parkland?
Dr. CARRICO. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's
party at Parkland, please.
Dr. CARRICO. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in
response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the
intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and
was taken to one of the trauma rooms.
Mr. SPECTER. And what identification was given to the trauma room to
which Governor Connally was taken?
Dr. CARRICO. Trauma room 2.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came
into the emergency area?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the
nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don
Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern,
was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that
time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and
the rest of the staff.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President
Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. No, no, sir; he didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of
President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. I believe he was in there and did the--he helped Dr.
Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Dulany do?
Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as
I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the
President, care for the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his
arrival at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. CARRICO. I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as
best you can recollect it?
Dr. CARRICO. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the
room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition
to Miss Bowron?
Dr. CARRICO. No, I don't recall any of them.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon
his arrival?
Dr. CARRICO. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow,
spasmodic, described as agonal.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for
just a moment there, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal
coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and
usually reflect a terminal patient.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe your observations of the
President?
Dr. CARRICO. His--the President's color--I don't believe I said--he
was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous
movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt
and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third
of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt
the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds,
and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and
scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little
more closely. There seemed to be a 4-5 cm. area of avulsion of the
scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar
tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated
and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the
inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed
endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through
the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx
and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury.
The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated,
and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate
respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood
pressure was obtained.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the
anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be
any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound?
Dr. CARRICO. This was probably a 4-7 mm. wound, almost in the midline,
maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid
cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged
edges or stellate lacerations.
Mr. SPECTER. You said you felt the President's back?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of
the back involved at that time?
Dr. CARRICO. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to
wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still
on his arms--I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little
above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no
large violation of the pleural cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not take the time to turn him over?
Dr. CARRICO. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more
thorough inspection would have involved several minutes--well,
several--considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A
thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back,
and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You
have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening
and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of
the injuries.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Before--well, in trying to treat an acutely
injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation
and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was
accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed
cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his
back.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after
he had expired?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his
back?
Dr. CARRICO. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it.
Mr. SPECTER. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in
order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that
description, please?
Dr. CARRICO. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been
inserted. After this, the President--his respirations were assisted
by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to
evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially
on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place
and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around
the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a
tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room
to insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the
resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using
polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and
uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300
mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion
of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac
monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical
cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible
electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed
cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in
maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly
deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead.
Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
Dr. CARRICO. A head injury.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the treatment which was given
to the President as best you recollect it?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all--I'm sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the
President's clothing?
Dr. CARRICO. We did not do that.
Mr. SPECTER. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico?
Dr. CARRICO. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed
by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was
devoted to trying to resuscitate the President.
Mr. SPECTER. On the examination of the President's back which you
described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back?
Dr. CARRICO. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back.
I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the
head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there.
Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect
to whether he had any back wound?
Dr. CARRICO. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect
a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is
to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest
posteriorly.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain
whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with
respect to the presence of a back brace, if any?
Dr. CARRICO. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we
noted he was wearing a standard back support.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that back support, please?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support,
with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front.
Mr. SPECTER. How wide was it?
Dr. CARRICO. How wide?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. CARRICO. I don't know; I didn't examine below--you see--as I
recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips
that you observed?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I didn't remove his pants.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his
body when his pants were removed?
Dr. CARRICO. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President
Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr.
McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones,
Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there--initially, at least, I
don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in
there, I just can't specifically remember--there were 10 or 15 people
in the room before it was over.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of
the punctate wound in the President's throat?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I really don't--just on the basis of what I know. We
didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the
bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. I can't hear you.
Dr. CARRICO. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the
bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track
of the bullets?
Dr. CARRICO. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to
do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to
establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct
these.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended
President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; after that afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations were there?
Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after--later
in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were
not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this
was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another
entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no
other entrance wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an
entry or exit wound, in your opinion?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, did it look to be more one than the other?
Dr. CARRICO. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of
the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that
President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the
upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from
the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process,
and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the
missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the
fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side
of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat.
Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would
the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent
with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of
approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with
the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that
wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with
the missile taking the path I have just described to you?
Dr. CARRICO. I certainly think it could.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce
that result?
Dr. CARRICO. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a
direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would
cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing
through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great
deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing
a small, round, even wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds?
Dr. CARRICO. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen
a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber
weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer
range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size,
especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures.
Mr. SPECTER. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass
through to which you have just referred?
Dr. CARRICO. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the
muscles of the leg superficially.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have
you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor?
Dr. CARRICO. I would guess 150 or 200.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the
nature of the head wound which you observed on the President?
Dr. CARRICO. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located
in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to
7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium
and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded
macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the
fragments of the skull attached to the dura.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the
one you have just described?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the
large gaping hole which you described?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how
many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President?
Dr. CARRICO. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any
representative of the Federal Government?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after
the President's death.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion?
Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't recall his name.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?
Dr. CARRICO. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical
school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a
statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true.
Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document
heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page
summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22,
1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic
copy of a report which you submitted?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, is that your signature at the end?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct?
Dr. CARRICO. They are.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the
trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in
more specific detail?
Dr. CARRICO. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was
inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the
lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and
hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a
ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This
was the extent of what I saw.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that specific portion of the wound give any
indication as to direction of the bullet?
Dr. CARRICO. No; it wouldn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give
any indication of the direction of the bullet?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you
any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true?
Dr. CARRICO. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some
others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds
were from, the direction, and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. And what response did you make to those inquiries?
Dr. CARRICO. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't
remember specifically.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal
Government prior to today?
Dr. CARRICO. Not in connection with this.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with
something else?
Dr. CARRICO. Just some Government employment--Civil Service.
Mr. SPECTER. But the only time you talked to anyone about your
treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that
treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another
Secret Service Agent--I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had
any other information and I said "no".
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the total contents of that conversation?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you
were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the
purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions
which I would ask you?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you gave me at that time the
same as that to which you have testified here on the record?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your
treatment and observations of President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Not as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present
time?
Dr. CARRICO. Twenty-eight.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found in the President's body.
Dr. CARRICO. Not by us.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort
concerning your treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. CARRICO. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to
my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the
treatment.
Mr. SPECTER. What does that concern?
Dr. CARRICO. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why
it happened--maybe.
Mr. SPECTER. Personal observations on your part?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in any of the press conferences?
Dr. CARRICO. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of
assistance in any way to the President's Commission?
Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; I don't believe I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter
requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission,
and do you acknowledge receipt of that?
Dr. CARRICO. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at
that time?
Dr. CARRICO. I certainly can.
Mr. SPECTER. Washington, D.C.
Dr. CARRICO. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico.
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY
The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present
in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his
deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now
inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical
attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which
Dr. Perry participated.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up,
Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the
President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. PERRY. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you state your full name for the record,
please?
Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. PERRY. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you?
Dr. PERRY. Thirty-four.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of
Texas?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. PERRY. Starting with high school?
Mr. SPECTER. That will be fine.
Dr. PERRY. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano
High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the
University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of
Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the
University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with
a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital
in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland
Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then
returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization
in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern
Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of
surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Dr. PERRY. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services,
both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a
consultant and attending surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after
noontime on November 22?
Dr. PERRY. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having
lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald
Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the
residents.
Mr. SPECTER. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an
emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is
the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a
paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to
see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital
operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to
Parkland Hospital for care.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action did you take as a result of learning those
factors?
Dr. PERRY. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency
room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to
render what assistance we could.
At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was
already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico,
the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to
assist respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall,
at that time?
Dr. PERRY. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were
there--Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several
other people in the room. There were several nurses there--I don't know
at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there
was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both
in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I
assume, part of the legal force.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room,
but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico--I had the
impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an
impression gathered after the fact.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition at
the time you first saw him?
Dr. PERRY. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in
the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been
removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I
believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen
apparatus to assist in respiration.
I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area
in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue
on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was
unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in
the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can,
please?
Dr. PERRY. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a
punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was
rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of
the wound exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you
can recollect?
Dr. PERRY. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they
were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I
determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in
size or so.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that
wound?
Dr. PERRY. I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the
condition of the President?
Dr. PERRY. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not
detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was
apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the
endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this
was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it
was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy
tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect
about your observations of the President before you started to work on
him?
Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any
other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not turn him over?
Dr. PERRY. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent
procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a
condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the
other procedures are to be of no avail.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever
turn him over?
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the
initial action on him?
Dr. PERRY. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were
breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage,
since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or
pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined
the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the
electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative
measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.
I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the
room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left
my coat where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my
coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.
Mr. SPECTER. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment
of President Kennedy?
Dr. PERRY. It did.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in
the Emergency Room?
Dr. PERRY. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when
I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look
at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it
again until after I had left the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed
from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived
at the emergency room?
Dr. PERRY. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really
don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no
occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to
consult it further.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the
emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?
Dr. PERRY. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed
my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes
in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes,
I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist
in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room
probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to
be dead?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related
to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once
again, I did not verify the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to
revive the President?
Dr. PERRY. There were other procedures done that I did not do during
this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the
tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time,
unless you want it.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were
followed in the efforts to save the President's life?
Dr. PERRY. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the
tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was
present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in
the underlying trachea.
I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it
down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying
the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral
aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea
was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the
strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea.
At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a
catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary
instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.
The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed
tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free
air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.
Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the
presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative
of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a
right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who
did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters
inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.
Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this
time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr.
Jones and Dr. Carrico.
Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to
support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that
he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.
Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under
the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the
anesthesia machine at the head of the table.
Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived
and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the
oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the operative procedures
performed on the President?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, all that I am familiar with.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any doctors who participated other than those
whom you have already identified in the course of your description?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr.
Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was
another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an
emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for
Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of
surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them
to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes.
My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was
when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting
me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr.
Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12
doctors all told by then.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any others whom you could identify?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Peters--I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters,
assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor
of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of
medicine.
I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke,
his assistant professor of anesthesiology--that's the only people that
I saw directly.
Mr. SPECTER. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don
Curtis?
Dr. PERRY. That's entirely possible--I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Dulany there?
Dr. PERRY. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in
the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was
just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door
when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but
I understand he was not, that actually he was going--just going in the
room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought
Dr. Dulany was there.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising
in the interior portion of the President's neck?
Dr. PERRY. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion
of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for
bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by
definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was
so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to
ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed
myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no
further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea
was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to
reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of
the President's neck?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or
how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the
trajectory.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's head,
specifically?
Dr. PERRY. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you,
which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area,
but I did not do a minute examination of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area?
Dr. PERRY. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over
the President at any time during the course of your treatment or
examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then
asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did
in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did
you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures?
Dr. PERRY. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than
it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further
that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a
minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a
little bit out of my domain.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's
clothing to ascertain direction of the missile?
Dr. PERRY. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know
about--I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an
attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but
the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency
room, I assume.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the description of that brace?
Dr. PERRY. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the
lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of
an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were
taken down?
Dr. PERRY. There was evidence of an Ace bandage--I saw it sticking out
from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was
on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his
right leg--his right thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as
well?
Dr. PERRY. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for
that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or
lower extremities.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in
any other way, of the President's back?
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in a press conference or press
conferences following the death of the President?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when was the first of such press conferences?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been
within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that press conference by way of
identifying, if you can, the members of the news media?
Dr. PERRY. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms
1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people.
I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple
of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights,
and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr.
Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me
as being with the White House Press. I don't know--there were numerous
people of the press.
Mr. SPECTER. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived
a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked
him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He
apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter
came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he
said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses
did you give at that press conference?
Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions
I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to
be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to
speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and
the exact cause of death.
The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was
that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not
categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it
was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the President
further--I could not comment on any other injuries.
As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive
brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying
cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to
what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such
detail--essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at
that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of
blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure
apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with
the cardiotachioscope.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with
respect to the number of bullets?
Dr. PERRY. I was asked by several of the people of the press,
initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr.
Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it
was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I
replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one
bullet?
Dr. PERRY. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and
I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and
strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the
head."
Mr. SPECTER. And where would that point of entry have been?
Dr. PERRY. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the
neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have
reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion
was?
Dr. PERRY. I did. I said this was conceivable--this was possible, but
again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether
there was one or two bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been
one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?
Dr. PERRY. I said I did not know.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you asked any other questions at that press
conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?
Dr. PERRY. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I
mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed
and very quiet.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did the next one occur?
Dr. PERRY. There were several organized press conferences that occurred
in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't
know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon.
There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the
administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in
relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald.
I don't know how many there were.
Mr. SPECTER. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of
the hospital?
Dr. PERRY. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily--I
wouldn't say--set up by the administration. They were done here at the
hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with
you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion,
please?
Dr. PERRY. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar
as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and
which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had
done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the
medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it,
say, at home.
I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in
order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and
approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and
requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and
the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given
to the previous press conference at the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that interview conducted?
Dr. PERRY. That was in McAllen, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. In the course of all of these press conferences did you
say anything other than that which you have already related you said
during the course of the first press conference?
Dr. PERRY. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't
think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording
certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit
more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon
my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our
statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have
made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and
people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I
did are essentially the same in all of these.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore
identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets
which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside
the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time--1630
hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of
the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you
gave to the President on the day of the assassination?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?
Dr. PERRY. That is my signature.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?
Dr. PERRY. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted
at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?
Dr. PERRY. They have.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with
your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of
the President's wounds?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I
did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat
confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted--I could not tell
whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the
findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings
which I noted at the time that I saw the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to
the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above
the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and
being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14
cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I saw that.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which
parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and
assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at
that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance
of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000
feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the
bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel,
without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing
the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the
President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the
wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your
findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat
be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?
Dr. PERRY. It would be entirely compatible.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the
situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with
your observations and findings?
Dr. PERRY. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not
examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed,
unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little
injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it
had left the tissues.
Mr. SPECTER. And would the hole that you observed on the President's
throat then be consistent with such an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination
as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an
exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound
could be produced by such a missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time
of the press conferences that you described?
Dr. PERRY. They were not.
Mr. SPECTER. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I
believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available
initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause
of the wound, did you not?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct, although several leading questions were
directed toward me at the various conferences.
Mr. SPECTER. And to those leading questions you have said here today
that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to
what might have happened?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the
true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to--in such a manner
as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a
position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And
my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but
similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."
Mr. SPECTER. So that, from the physical characteristics which you
observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive
opinion?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think,
as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the
preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the
case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.
Mr. SPECTER. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that
I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what
you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors,
which I have asked you to assume?
Dr. PERRY. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either
by my own knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's
neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3
and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather
large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible
alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the
cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound
is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably
by any number of objects.
Mr. SPECTER. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck
would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I
described to you?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a
different set of factors?
Dr. PERRY. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I
do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of
a large expanded bullet--voluntarily I would add that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description
of a large expanded bullet?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a
6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the
right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the
President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion
as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?
Dr. PERRY. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned,
the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and
the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound,
taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present
sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or
trajectory?
Dr. PERRY. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the
wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could
certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the
skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to
tell.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it
came from the front or back of the President?
Dr. PERRY. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of
the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive
wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly
indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance
and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?
Dr. PERRY. The smaller wound--the smaller wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with
Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls
indicating first the time when they occurred.
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by
about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think
I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not
real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.
Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been Saturday morning?
Dr. PERRY. Saturday morning--was it? It's possible. I remember talking
with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the record will show.
Dr. PERRY. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What made you change your view of that?
Dr. PERRY. You mean Friday?
Mr. SPECTER. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed
your view from Friday to Saturday?
Dr. PERRY. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time--Friday
afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about
it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I
thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday,
for some reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you received those calls?
Dr. PERRY. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you, if anything?
Dr. PERRY. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing
a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure,
that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which
was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury
underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision
made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral
injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.
He subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that
he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in
confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired
about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part
as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to
Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them as having placed it in
the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the
right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds
in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I
knowledge of any wounds of the back.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article
which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?
Dr. PERRY. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of
surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical
services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the
President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such
article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter
about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which
apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York
Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room
No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the
President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview
of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the
rest of it was obtained from various people here.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the content of that story accurate?
Dr. PERRY. There were certain inaccuracies--the overall content
was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification
of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to
conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have
knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since
they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the
Federal Government about this matter prior to today?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what
occasions? As best you can recollect it.
Dr. PERRY. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did
not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these
things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little
better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very
difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several
people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as
being affiliated with the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service
personnel?
Dr. PERRY. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact
dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even
remember their names now.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the first gentleman?
Dr. PERRY. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I
indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present
time it escapes me.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them in essence?
Dr. PERRY. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions
and my care of the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Has there ever been any variation in the information which
you have given the Federal investigators?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in
wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined
it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge,
has been essentially consistent.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the
Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?
Dr. PERRY. I talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified
themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not
recall their names either.
Mr. SPECTER. What did they ask you about?
Dr. PERRY. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might
speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I
replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my
own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you set forth here today the same information which
you gave to the FBI?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being
essentially the same thing.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had
with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. PERRY. I think I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of
this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the
record, before this deposition started?
Dr. PERRY. Yes; we did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you
provided on the record here today?
Dr. PERRY. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the President's Commission?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition
today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in
Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the
record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.
Dr. PERRY. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more
question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this
deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?
Dr. PERRY. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland,
which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the
trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly
considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile
accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in
addition to that obtained here at Parkland?
Dr. PERRY. You mean, in the service?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. PERRY. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was
in the service.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen
while you have been at Parkland?
Dr. PERRY. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?
Dr. PERRY. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur
hand loader.
Mr. SPECTER. Amateur what?
Dr. PERRY. Amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.
Dr. PERRY. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK
The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on
March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right
hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in
this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. You may be seated.
Dr. CLARK. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. The President's Commission is investigating all facts
related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been
asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical
treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital
and all facts incident thereto.
Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission
enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and
a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and
a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?
Dr. CLARK. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today,
even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the
letter and this morning?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. CLARK. William Kemp Clark.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline in a general way your educational
background, please?
Dr. CLARK. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin,
1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at
Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and
was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in
the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at
Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to
1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern
Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.
Would you like the professional qualifications?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary
form, if you will, please.
Dr. CLARK. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological
Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a
member of the Harvey Cushing Society.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?
Dr. CLARK. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the
world.
Mr. SPECTER. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the
Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?
Dr. CLARK. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery
and carry the responsibility of administering this department or
this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in
neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have
the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland
Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical
school.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that
the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at approximately what time you got that
notification?
Dr. CLARK. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of
receiving that notification?
Dr. CLARK. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland
Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when
this word reached me by phone from the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes,
so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival,
attending to the President?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to
say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving
either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland,
Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe the President's condition to be on
your arrival there?
Dr. CLARK. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart.
Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being
inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations
through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were
administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making
a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the
endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert
the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.
My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to
light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.
I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was
a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and
cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable
blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of
some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being
present.
As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse
and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked
that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was
difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that
he felt a femoral pulse.
Mr. SPECTER. What is a femoral pulse?
Dr. CLARK. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and
at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial
pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was
taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.
Mr. SPECTER. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?
Dr. CLARK. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a
cardiac monitor for a better word----
Mr. SPECTER. That's a good word.
Dr. CLARK. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad
Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the
President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the
external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be
felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time was this fixed?
Dr. CLARK. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what
way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?
Dr. CLARK. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely
difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was
monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?
Dr. CLARK. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death
certificate?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do with respect to that?
Dr. CLARK. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr.
George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed
the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas,
and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of
the death of the President?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?
Dr. CLARK. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the
President's body?
Dr. CLARK. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at
Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on
the day of the assassination?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did the press conference occur?
Dr. CLARK. Approximately 2:30.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was it held?
Dr. CLARK. It was held in room 101-102, Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the
press at the conference?
Dr. CLARK. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual
note pads and pencils, and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was interviewed during the course of the press
conference and photographed?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. No one else?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that
press conference?
Dr. CLARK. I described the President's wound in his head in very much
the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was
an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an
exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Which wound did you refer to at this time?
Dr. CLARK. The wound in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you describe at that time what you meant by
"tangential"?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?
Dr. CLARK. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as
being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail
the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type
of a striking?
Dr. CLARK. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ
when struck by a bullet or other missile----
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition
for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be
here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12
o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the
deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential
and other types of striking.
Go ahead, Doctor.
Dr. CLARK. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function
of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this
organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through
rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage
results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated
by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must
then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed
more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.
Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of
the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles.
Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it
would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual
direct line it was proceeding.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you
define a tangential wound at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what else did you state at the press conference at
2:30 on November 22?
Dr. CLARK. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood,
that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood
loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had
sustained or from what angle they could have come.
I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a
massive one and was insurvivable.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of
that press conference, when the cameras were operating?
Dr. CLARK. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small
wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the
tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was
deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest.
He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He
was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit
wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance
wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in
response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I cannot recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did that second press conference occur?
Dr. CLARK. On Saturday, the 23d.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time?
Dr. CLARK. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the first press conference for just a
minute, which television networks were involved on that?
Dr. CLARK. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had
never heard of.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect any besides the three major
networks--ABC, CBS, and NBC?
Dr. CLARK. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room
two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and
television stations were also present.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the second conference which I had
started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what
time of day that was?
Dr. CLARK. It was in the morning, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. And what television stations or networks were involved in
that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our
local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and
as full as the first one.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan,
assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital.
This is his office.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that press conference while the
television cameras were grinding?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press
conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the
President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's
condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he
described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a
point of entry or exit?
Dr. CLARK. I do not remember--I specifically discussed this--may I add
something to what I said in the first press conference?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind,
please feel free to add that.
Dr. CLARK. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at
the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a
wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said
something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.
Mr. SPECTER. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have
been possible in that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with
gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take,
and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had
to go to get from there to the top of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking
specific parts of the body?
Dr. CLARK. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile
would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the
President was hanging upside down.
Me. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that
second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about
that subject?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda
Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the
autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by
the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to
that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested
that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts
to you?
Dr. CLARK. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I
could be wrong on that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did that occur?
Dr. CLARK. During the following week--I have forgotten exactly the day.
Mr. SPECTER. And what networks were involved at that time?
Dr. CLARK. It was CBS.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a television conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; this was filmed.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Again, Mr. Landregan.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr.
Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if
it differed in any way from what you said before?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; it did not.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing that he had said before,
describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the
President, how he was called and so forth.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an
entrance wound or an exit wound or what?
Dr. CLARK. I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He
described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He
described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the
time he was anesthetized in the operating room.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what
was done in an attempt to save him.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding
Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was
anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw
it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on
President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President
Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of
entry or exit?
Dr. CLARK. I don't remember--I don't believe he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that
press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Except Dr. Jenkins.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President
Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found
an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he
described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1,
and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision
to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr.
Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press
conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the
assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. And who arranged that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that filmed?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, that was also filmed.
Mr. SPECTER. And who spoke at that time?
Dr. CLARK. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so
stated in the conference.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When was that?
Dr. CLARK. The week after the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. And with whom was that press conference?
Dr. CLARK. With BBC.
Mr. SPECTER. Who arranged that?
Dr. CLARK. Mr. Landregan, again.
Mr. SPECTER. And did anyone else participate in that press conference
with you?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?
Dr. CLARK. It was simply recorded.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you say at that time?
Dr. CLARK. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous
conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what
transpired after I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a
hole on the left side of the President's head?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At which conference or conferences?
Dr. CLARK. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated
that I personally saw no such wound.
Mr. SPECTER. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?
Dr. CLARK. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought
up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was
some discussion of such a wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?
Dr. CLARK. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the
wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the
left side?
Dr. CLARK. I don't recall--I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Had there been some comment that the priests made a
comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?
Dr. CLARK. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who
attended the press conference with NBC.
Mr. SPECTER. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?
Dr. CLARK. They were on the right side of the President's body.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the
President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other
hole or wound on the President's head?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a
bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior
scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the
external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in
the blood and hair.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on
the back side of the President?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. Not in my presence; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other
doctors who were in attendance?
Dr. CLARK. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance,
because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate
signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's
body out of Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?
Dr. CLARK. Dr. Burkley.
Mr. SPECTER. That's the President's private physician?
Dr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some
other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral
wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5
cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital
proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present
without your observing it?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and
scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time
available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present.
Mr. SPECTER. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the
autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling);
Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col.
Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion
that the wound which I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm.
and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital
protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's
head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward
with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open
car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied
to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet
would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the
center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening
from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought
to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent
with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I
have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have
personally observed?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you
comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency,
had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described
and the total wound which he had?
Dr. CLARK. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance.
Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably
have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The
loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal
lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a
visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with
his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se,
but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have
had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper.
This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information
on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.
How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the
ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not
know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to
move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most
important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as
a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired
his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of
the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned
with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue
does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There
would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to
give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of
the United States.
Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with
people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon
them.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on
your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to
the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit
No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport
to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and
correct?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And I now show you a 2-3/4-page summary which purports to
bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if
that, in fact, is your signature?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand
concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you made any other written report or other writings
of any sort concerning this matter?
Dr. CLARK. No; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with
any Federal representative prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you talk to?
Dr. CLARK. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination,
in Mr. Jack Price's office.
Mr. SPECTER. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?
Dr. CLARK. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This
agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles
from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew
of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I
assured him I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you anything further?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him anything further?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have
asked and he said that was all he wished to know.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you talk to any other representative of the
Federal Government at any time before today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service
approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on
two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the
written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.
I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I
prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified
here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of
the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I
had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did
not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have
written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have
had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had any conversations with any representative
of the State government prior to today?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken,
did you and I have a discussion about this matter?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this
Commission is.
Mr. SPECTER. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record
was open and we started taking your deposition?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter
transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and
prior to the start of the more formal session here?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which
you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr.
Clark?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it,
Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.
Dr. CLARK. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED
The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March
25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to
have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition
which was taken on March 21.
Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the
first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions
based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express",
which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.
Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what
purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of
February 20, 1964?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.
"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp
Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet
hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently
referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not
come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the
President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet
which hit 'the right side of his head'".
Dr. Clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a
New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect
to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.
Dr. CLARK. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a
wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of
his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was
an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when
the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement
regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that
there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw
the President.
A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial
quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the
bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the
placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It
was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the
trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that
a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the
trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck
which so indicated?
Dr. CLARK. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if
there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have
been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space,
the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of
air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will
produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat,
there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of
the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without
opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed
that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile
into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of
bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which
you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the
deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no
means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the
chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any external indication that there was a missile
in the chest?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have
been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on
the neck?
Dr. CLARK. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.
Mr. SPECTER. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have
been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to
take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in
the chest at some point?
Dr. CLARK. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had
happened.
Mr. SPECTER. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express,"
"This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would
that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr.
Clark?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask
you a few additional questions.
Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have
taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been
transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what
I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you
before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping.
Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the
emergency room?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?
Dr. CLARK. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in
the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward
saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds.
After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the
conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would
be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory
external examination here.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?
Dr. CLARK. In the back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER. But how about on the back of his body, was there any
bleeding wound noted?
Dr. CLARK. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer
that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there
had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That is, none was taken by you personally?
Dr. CLARK. That's correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first
doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine
whether there was any major violation of that area.
Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was
any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on
the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the
scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip
of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?
Dr. CLARK. I'm sorry--your question?
Mr. SPECTER. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling
approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter,
cause a bloody type of a wound?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in
the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of
the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred
which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised
here in "L' Express".
"How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the
President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?"
Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that
question, as the news media has posed it?
Dr. CLARK. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time
the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life.
When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not
done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that
would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his
assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would
be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any
cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death
certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance
with what you believed to be good medical practice?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that
the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross
negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it
here.
Dr. CLARK. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. CLARK. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where
the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be
filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to
be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death
certificate.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think
might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's
Commission?
Dr. CLARK. No; I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the
questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it
went on the record?
Dr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal
Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and
this Wednesday morning?
Dr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.
Dr. CLARK. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND
The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March
21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you raise your right hand?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these
proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to
take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is
being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you
to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which
President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Robert Nelson McClelland.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you received a letter from the Commission which
enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a
copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and
a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions
for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time
of the receipt of the letter and today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, Doctor?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I am a doctor of medicine.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
starting with your graduation from college, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Since graduation from college I attended medical
school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex.,
and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to
Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University
of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that
period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years
in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became
a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas
in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August
1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and
then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June
1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962.
Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the
staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am
at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland
Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where in your background did you acquire that experience?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely during residency training and subsequent to
that in my capacity here on the staff.
Mr. SPECTER. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience
here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to
acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital
which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all
of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved
frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number
of that type patient almost daily.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot
wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At that time I was showing a film on surgical
techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of
Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the
fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency
room after having been shot.
Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, did you take following that
notification?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the
Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency
room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been
taken immediately upon arrival.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency
Room 1?
Dr. McCLELLAND. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate
or estimate, rather, about 12:40.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your
arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry--would you like the
full names of all these?
Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, I would appreciate that.
Dr. McCLELLAND. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles
Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they all present at the time you arrived?
Dr. McCLELLAND. They were not present when I arrived.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start with the ones who were present?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry,
the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and
Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same
time that I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did,
in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?
Dr. McCLELLAND. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr.
Kenneth Salyer.
Mr. SPECTER. S-a-l-y-e-r?
Dr. McCLELLAND. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald
Seldin----
Mr. SPECTER. S-e-l-d-i-n?
Dr. McCLELLAND. S-e-l-d-i-n--I believe that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition
at that time?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting
him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical
gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head
injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood
appeared cyanotic----
Mr. SPECTER. "Cyanotic"--may I interrupt--just what do you mean by that
in lay terms?
Dr. McCLELLAND. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black
discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant,
which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased
intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at
the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving
artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was operating that machine?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The machine--there was a changeover, just as I came
in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been
operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing
machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same
time I arrived--this would be one other doctor who came in the
room that I forgot about--Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of
anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine,
which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of
respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's
tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with
these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I
came in.
Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at
the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately
at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in
the neck line.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the
neck wound when you first arrived?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time
converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made
by Dr. Perry, and he told me--although I did not see that--that he had
made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter
inch in diameter wound in the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely
than that?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He did not at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He has since that time.
Mr. SPECTER. And what description has he given of it since that time?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave
was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small
injury, with clear cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less
than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding
it on the skin.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that
bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin
portion, that is.
Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection
with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation
with respect to the head wound?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As I took the position at the head of the table that
I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in
such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I
noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely
blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so
that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to
be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of
the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung
open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually
look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or
so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some
of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount
of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels
in the skull which had been blasted open.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he alive at the time you first saw him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the
hectic activity--I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or
what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say
that would perhaps give evidence--this is not vital activity--at most,
is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but
it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him,
whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe the activity and part that you
performed in the treatment which followed your arrival?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry
and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked
together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles
out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the
spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the
fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube
into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to
this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here.
Mr. SPECTER. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior
damage to the President?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe that for me, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of
contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right
side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site
was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left
side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required
partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough
exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of
soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently
the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the
strap muscles which were applied closely to it.
Mr. SPECTER. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the
time you were performing the procedures you have just described?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had
consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely,
the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in
the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too
much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes
were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and
as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know
exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood.
In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the
tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were
attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say,
an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity,
and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left
chest--both, as I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who was placing those tubes?
Dr. McCLELLAND. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters.
The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall--I perhaps
better not say.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know about how long that took in placing those
chest tubes?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in.
What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and
that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and
slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes
of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the
lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was
probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of
blood and air into one or both pleural cavities.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect did this medical treatment have on President
Kennedy?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt
that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed
rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling
that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as
establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what
not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and
cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And, at what time did he expire?
Dr. McCLELLAND. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of death in your opinion?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head
injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues
and massive blood loss.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his
body other than that which you have already described for me?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the
time you saw him until the pronouncement of death?
Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the cart.
Mr. SPECTER. On his what?
Dr. McCLELLAND. On his back on the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he on the stretcher at all times?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table
onto which he could be placed from the stretcher?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; generally we do not move patients from the
stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then
they are moved onto the operating table.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the
course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you
could have seen the back of his body?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who
attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which
was inflicted on him?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what facts did you have available either to you or to
the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the
nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew
nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired.
We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired,
essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20
or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial
impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your initial impressions?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the
wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound
and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral
body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce
the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining
of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much
easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets,
which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one
then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it.
Mr. SPECTER. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer,
to whom do you mean by "we"?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously
been mentioned here.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the condition of the back of the
President's head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not
lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid
moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see,
of course, all the extent of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. You saw a large opening which you have already described?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I saw the large opening which I have described.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large
opening on the back of the head?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on the experience that you have described for us
with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you
characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as
being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description
which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were
there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of
entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your
words?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would say it would be equally consistent with either
type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite
difficult to say--impossible.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report
which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and
has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission
Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page,
"Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all
if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and
next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the
authorities at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the
best of your knowledge, information and belief?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a
few minutes before I started to take your deposition today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And I discussed this matter with you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, during the course of our conversations at that time,
did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you
have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And has the information which you have given me on the
record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in
advance?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your
testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to
waive any such signature of the testimony?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I would be willing to waive my signature.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition
today.
Dr. McCLELLAND. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED
The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has
returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation
of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the
intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr.
McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today.
Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this
deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French,
of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you
if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to
a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis
Post Dispatch.
Dr. McCLELLAND. (Examined instrument referred to.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post
Dispatch about this matter?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his name?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Richard Dudman.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman?
Dr. McCLELLAND. As well as I recall, it was the day after the
assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about
that.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said
to you and you said to him, please?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt
to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and
as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a
small undamaged--appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck,
the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual
entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be--you
couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of
certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds
of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference
between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in
essence what I told him about the nature of the wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time
the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated,
in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when
I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to
assist with the tracheotomy.
Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and
were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended
through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as
an entrance wound.
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the
entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it
is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by
everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this,
if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in
its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it
had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the
wound--but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described
it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound,
knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I
really couldn't say--that's the whole point. This would merely be a
calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just
seeing the wound itself.
Mr. SPECTER. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the
incision was made?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be
based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry?
Dr. McCLELLAND. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post
Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your
only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really
don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether
I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or
whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr.
Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time
exactly what I said to him.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional
questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I
asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet
had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not
have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers
you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many,
many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be
absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that
time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the
subject.
First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the
wounds on President Kennedy which you observed?
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate
moment?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time.
Dr. McCLELLAND. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before
we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were
just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran
through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered
through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which
we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to
ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base
of the skull and out the rear of the skull.
This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have
made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were
surrounding the assassination, this was much more readily explainable
to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many
bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Two.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your
opinion in that respect?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from
all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination.
Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me
change my mind in that regard.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional
facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you
and I'll ask you for an opinion.
Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right
posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point
14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a
tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of
entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a
muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located
160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on
the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two
strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved
through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and
exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's
neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side
of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet
might make in such a trajectory through the President's body?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes; I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that
would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined
them to you?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the
missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding
from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it
had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even
though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost
a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore
would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the
bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole
like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that.
Mr. SPECTER. What would have happened then to the other portion of the
bullet if it had fragmented?
Dr. McCLELLAND. It might have been left along, or portions of it along
the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this.
Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there
will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment
out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is
extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like
that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, assuming this situation--that the bullet did not
fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is,
it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there
were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is
left in.
Dr. McCLELLAND. I think even then you could make the statement that
this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through
this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before
it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really
great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high
velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such
as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance
hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the
anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density
from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body,
it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up
a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet
of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large
area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily make the usual kind
of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity
heavy caliber bullet.
This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been
implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell
for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was
blown up a good deal.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned
over?
Dr. McCLELLAND. The President's body was not turned over because the
initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency
are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and
replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried
out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical
examination, which of course would have required that these other
emergency measures not be done immediately.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any examination of the President's back at
all?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of the President's back made to your
knowledge?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Not here--no.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the Commission?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that
some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound
may have been misleading, possibly--probably because of our fault in
telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of
being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we
generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be
certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government
about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday?
Dr. McCLELLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing
you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the
record here?
Dr. McCLELLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me in response to
my questions the same that we put on the record here?
Dr. McCLELLAND. To the best of my knowledge--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland.
Dr. McCLELLAND. All right. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER
The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on
March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in
response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition.
For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of
the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President
Kennedy.
Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in
connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy,
and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr.
Baxter, and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's
Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. BAXTER. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name, please?
Dr. BAXTER. Charles Rufus Baxter.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?
Dr. BAXTER. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?
Dr. BAXTER. University of Texas--1948 through 1950. Southwestern
Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship,
1956 medicine residency--internal medicine residency. 1956 through
1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through
1964--surgical residency, and 1964 through the present--this is 1964, I
got out of the Army--in 1958, 1958 through 1962--surgery residency, and
1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you board certified, Doctor?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what boards have you passed?
Dr. BAXTER. The American Board of Surgeons.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you so certified?
Dr. BAXTER. 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specific title at the medical school?
Dr. BAXTER. Assistant professor of surgery.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President
Kennedy at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding
your being called to render such assistance?
Dr. BAXTER. I was conducting the student health service in the hours
of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency
room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency
room, having been shot.
I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it
took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency
room?
Dr. BAXTER. I think it was 12:40--thereabouts.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was present at that time?
Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins--several nurses.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the nurses?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; Mrs. Nelson--and who else? There were two or three
others whose names--Miss Henchliffe was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Miss Bowron?
Dr. BAXTER. Who?
Mr. SPECTER. Was Miss Bowron there?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any other nurses there?
Dr. BAXTER. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that
time?
Dr. BAXTER. Oh, let's see--I'm not sure whether the others came before
or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour
finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt--yes--she was, I believe she was
the anesthesiologist who came.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there?
Dr. BAXTER. I'm not sure--I just don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition
of the President?
Dr. BAXTER. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping
wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its
extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the
pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were
deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so
that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way was his breathing being assisted?
Dr. BAXTER. With an anesthesia machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his
condition?
Dr. BAXTER. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The
anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is that who said that to you?
Dr. BAXTER. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart
was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous
catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that
time--well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other
wound was in his neck, that we saw.
Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that
moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest
tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a
tracheotomy.
Mr. SPECTER. Who performed the tracheotomy?
Dr. BAXTER. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr.
McClelland, and I believe that's all--there may have been one more
person that held the retractor.
Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy
at that time?
Dr. BAXTER. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of
a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the
tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present.
Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube
placement.
We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him
closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope
hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat
electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at
that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him,
while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity
to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope,
that is, in a word--literally the right side of his head had been blown
off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present--a
large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well--we felt that
such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not
pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and
last rites before we pronounced him dead.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time was he pronounced dead?
Dr. BAXTER. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been
that that was Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time
of death be fixed with any precision?
Dr. BAXTER. I don't think so--the time elapsing in all of this
resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one
could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1
o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made
to save the life of the President?
Dr. BAXTER. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were
administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous
medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood
loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all.
Mr. SPECTER. What other doctors arrived during the course of the
treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?
Dr. BAXTER. I don't recall--I know that there were more doctors present
in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure
is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the
Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can
the nature of the head wound?
Dr. BAXTER. The only wound that I actually saw--Dr. Clark examined this
above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was
in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there
was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain
oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a
rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at
the top of the head?
Dr. BAXTER. No; I personally did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can
the wound which you noticed on the President's neck?
Dr. BAXTER. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half
above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was
in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical
wound. The edges of it--the size of the wound is measured by the hole
plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small
wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised
in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper
tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of
the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea.
The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left.
Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which
was immediately above the area of damage--where we thought the damaged
area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the
endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into
the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good
control or perfect control of respiration.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck
sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical
certainty as to what was the cause of the hole?
Dr. BAXTER. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot
wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect
with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did
not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an
exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found
or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry.
However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending
upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that
it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound
could well represent either exit or entry wound.
Mr. SPECTER. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you
personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these
additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound
of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border
of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape,
being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm.
below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of
facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet
shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from
a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per
second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the
President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder
without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline
of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be
consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just
given to you?
Dr. BAXTER. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of
this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through
tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence
which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a
wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. What would be the considerations which, in your mind,
would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?
Dr. BAXTER. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet
would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which
would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend
to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than
this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would
create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be
the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a
rather large wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?
Dr. BAXTER. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit
was not of any greater magnitude than it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet
could have passed in the general direction which I have described to
you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of
great density?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have
described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it
would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of
paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.
Mr. SPECTER. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave
which you have heretofore described?
Dr. BAXTER. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not
ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is
damage that is recognized several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?
Dr. BAXTER. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding
tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early
course after a missile has passed through.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size,
and nature of the hole of exit?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without
striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble
at all?
Dr. BAXTER. No, it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with
gunshot wounds?
Dr. BAXTER. For the past 6 years--we admit and treat, I would estimate,
around 500 gunshot wounds per year--thereabouts.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds?
Dr. BAXTER. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of
various velocities and that type missile wounds.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him,
Dr. Baxter?
Dr. BAXTER. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first
saw him until the time he was pronounced dead?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Would your examination have been conducted in any
different way had this particular victim not been the President of the
United States?
Dr. BAXTER. I think--yes--in that we would have, particularly,
postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would
certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the
direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under
the circumstances.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances?
Dr. BAXTER. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of
people in the room by that time--Secret Service Agents, the priests and
so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service
more or less--well, requested that we clear the room and leave them
with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret
Service wished was carried out.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that?
Dr. BAXTER. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did,
as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests.
In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at
that time was such that probably we would not--we didn't feel that we
should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care
of all that we were going to miss.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your
professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was
rendered to the President?
Dr. BAXTER. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room
was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in
no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment
used in the care of the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr.
Baxter?
Dr. BAXTER. Gunshot wound to the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President
Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the
neck?
Dr. BAXTER. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck
that would not be well taken care of by simply--by the tracheotomy and
chest tubes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you find any bullets in the President's body?
Dr. BAXTER. No, we did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body?
Mr. BAXTER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which
has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report
from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a
page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which
you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all,
if that is your signature?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And, if this is the report which you submitted?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort
concerning your care of President Kennedy?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of
your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots?
Dr. BAXTER. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the
President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On
arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted
respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in
one leg and in the left arm.
The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first
observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones
were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive
lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated
laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as
noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and
I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace
anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered
by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no
heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a
cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was
obtained.
Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected,
no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made."
Mr. SPECTER. And that bears your signature?
Dr. BAXTER. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery,
Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal
Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today?
Dr. BAXTER. The only person was a Secret Service Agent
about--approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any
additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the
medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No."
Mr. SPECTER. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to
transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss
this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would
ask you?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And are the answers given on the record here the same as
you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was
started?
Dr. BAXTER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?
Dr. BAXTER. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter.
Dr. BAXTER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS
The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on
March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared
in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to
testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed
by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of
purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right
hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's
Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. JENKINS. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Dr. JENKINS. Marion Thomas Jenkins.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, please?
Dr. JENKINS. I'm a physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice
medicine?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins?
Dr. JENKINS. Anesthesiology.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline your educational background for me,
please?
Dr. JENKINS. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have
a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical
Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of
Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940-41; Assistant Residency in
Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941-42;
active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946;
Resident in Surgery--Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946-47; Resident in
anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947-48;
and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and
Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman
of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern
Medical School--since 1951. Diplomate--other certification, do you want
this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, what Boards are you certified?
Dr. JENKINS. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology
and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year were you certified by the American Board?
Dr. JENKINS. 1952.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of
President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding
your being called into that case?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the
hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires,
being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any
service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call.
Mr. SPECTER. What does that mean, "Stat"?
Dr. JENKINS. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has
been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and
one of the surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone,
thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of
Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately
came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from
his face--I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President
has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we
heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway
from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this
was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the
street, but these came on clear to the building.
Mr. SPECTER. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the
hospital?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department,
that's on the second floor--one floor above the dining room, where I
was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw,
my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that
the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room
and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including
an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are
used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it
down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in
the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I
guess.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be
indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the
clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I
didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the
emergency room, if anyone?
Dr. JENKINS. The hallway was loaded with people.
Mr. SPECTER. What medical personnel were in attendance?
Dr. JENKINS. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service
men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it
turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany--Dick Dulany, I guess you
have his name, and several nurses were in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you identify the nurses?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later
looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names
of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I
first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it
seemed to me.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later
observations of them?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the
procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, would you do that for us, please?
Dr. JENKINS. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss
Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe--I don't
know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe.
Mr. SPECTER. Margaret?
Dr. JENKINS. Margaret--certainly. Those three--there were probably some
student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you
recollect as being in the room?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only
the--actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the President,
two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have
identified all I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to the President's condition when
you arrived in the emergency room?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This
is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much
trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made
up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are
referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles
of respiration. He had this characteristic of respiration. His eyes
were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused,
cyanotic--a purplish cyanosis.
Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal
type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at
this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because
one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the
activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped,
such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted,
he can be saved.
Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud
of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and
under the circumstances--it was harder--he had just completed a 3-month
rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented
good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had
a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound.
The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube,
the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go
into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from
both lungs, or both chests.
There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing
apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected
this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen
by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the
scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with
something I am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, I must insist on
that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation
with 100 percent oxygen.
As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection.
Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish
of the circumstance.
Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished
personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered
or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative
procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the
resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan,
because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in
their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity
for this being done.
There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the
neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would
have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in.
This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea
and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or
a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley
Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe,
started the tracheotomy.
About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr.
Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious
physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest
drainage--chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not
aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed
chest cardiac massage.
There were other people--one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in
the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department
connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on
the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the
sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them
on my report, which you have here, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show
you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit
No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital
Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his
possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what
purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963,
and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr.
Price?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the
neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the
endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr.
Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as
accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the
tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up
the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and
respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I
should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound
of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly
demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an
entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course,
entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound
also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression
it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound--for
the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by
recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the wound in the neck as
specifically as you can at this moment?
Dr. JENKINS. I believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in
the head?
Dr. JENKINS. Almost by the time I was--had the time to pay more
attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were
under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the
patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia
apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up
and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the
cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention
to the wound in the head.
Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time
and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each
compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the
skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of
the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there
was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on
the drapes of the cart on which the President lay.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive
loss of skull which you have described?
Dr. JENKINS. On the right side?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Dr. JENKINS. No--I don't know whether this is right or not, but I
thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the
hairline and right above the zygomatic process.
Mr. SPECTER. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr.
Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS. Well, I was feeling for--I was palpating here for a pulse
to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not
and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and
so I thought there was a wound there also.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was President Kennedy
pronounced dead?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300,
according to my watch, at least, at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?
Dr. JENKINS. Cerebral injury--brain injury.
Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course
of this treatment at Parkland?
Dr. JENKINS. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I
think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were
there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong
word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this
was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he
had a fatal wound, and I think my own personal feeling was that this
was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have
done any further search.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your
knowledge?
Dr. JENKINS. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he
was being cared for?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.
Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; let's go off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr.
Jenkins.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are back on the record and
Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the
declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to
repeat for the record what you have just said off the record.
Dr. JENKINS. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as
"chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the
sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there
was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as
brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient
was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and
this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the
electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up.
However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since
I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued
attempted resuscitative maneuvers.
When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the
emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and
asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration
job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper
time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not
sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The
time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that
medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be
a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time
they would still have the final rites.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was
declared dead medically?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me
that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal--on
the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back
into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because
they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that
they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put
forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the
priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure,
respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My
memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's
the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was
still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your
characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of
facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your
view or opinion.
Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound
on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of
the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion
process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and
that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon
having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and
approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after
entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile
traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without
violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the
trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which
you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I
have just described?
Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr.
Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that
is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for
this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so
I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard
a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid
probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I
do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of
the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they
have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the
department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular
system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds
of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and
activities during the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in
exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds?
Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal
Government at any time prior to today?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who
showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came
to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the
hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I
had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation,
I think.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your
participation in the treatment of the President?
Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School,
essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have
that. I don't know whether you want it or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it.
Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however--can I ask you
something off of the record here?
Mr. SPECTER. Sure.
(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off
the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a
couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will
ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.
(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit
No. 36, for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify
this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is.
Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted
to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on
your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right.
Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the
record--I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question
as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in
your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?
Dr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this
would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have
not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of
exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?
Mr. SPECTER. It did not.
Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been
fatal.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds
which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?
Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been
two bullets--two missiles.
Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?
Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as
I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of
exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought
it was a wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in
connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy?
Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his
pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must
have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his
chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go
that way. I thought it did.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other
opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds
been changed in any way?
Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a
wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the
hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have
been a wound there (indicating).
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of
entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me.
This was my only other question about it.
Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your
opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries?
Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service
Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal
Government prior to today about this subject?
Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only ti
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