Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15)
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Title: Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
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*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (03 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. III (OF 15) ***
Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V", "Y", and "Z" symbols are denoted as
=V=, =Y=, and =Z=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_.
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ III
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III:
Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife;
Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene;
Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom
Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker,
a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination
scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and
Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the
investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building
immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who
apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham,
William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who
were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James
Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland
Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons
evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt
Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert
with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the
Illinois Department of Public Safety.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1
Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211
Bonnie Ray Williams 161
Harold Norman 186
James Jarman, Jr 198
Roy Sansom Truly 212
Marrion L. Baker 242
Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270
Luke Mooney 281
Eugene Boone 291
M. N. McDonald 295
Helen Markham 305, 340
William W. Scoggins 322
Barbara Jeanette Davis 342
Ted Callaway 351
Charles James Carrico 357
Malcolm Perry 366
Robert A. Frazier 390
Ronald Simmons 441
Cortlandt Cunningham 451
Joseph D. Nicol 496
COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Exhibit No.: Page
128 31
425 95
426 2
429 23
430 55
431 55
432 55
433 55
434 55
435 55
436 55
437 55
438 55
439 55
440 55
441 55
442 55
443 55
444 55
445 55
446 55
447 55
448 55
449 75
450 55
451 95
452 55
453 95
454 95
455 95
456 95
459-1 134
460 132
477 147
478 147
479 147
480 157
481 157
482 157
483 183
484 183
485 183
486 183
487 183
488 183
489 183
490 183
491 183
492 183
493 194
494 217
495 217
496 217
497 236
498 236
499 236
500 236
501 236
502 236
503 236
504 236
505 236
506 236
507 280
508 290
509 290
510 290
511 290
512 290
513 290
514 290
515 290
516 294
517 294
518 302
519 302
520 304
521 314
522 314
523 314
524 314
525 317
526 317
527 321
528 324
529 339
530 339
531 339
532 339
534 339
535 341
536 341
537 357
538 357
539 357
540 392
541 394
542 397
543 399
544 399
545 399
546 401
547 401
548 403
549 403
550 404
551 404
552 404
553 404
554 404
555 405
556 408
557 415
558 415
559 419
560 420
561 423
562 424
563 425
564 427
565 427
566 430
567 432
568 432
569 435
570 436
572 437
573 439
574 441
575 441
576 444
577 444
578 444
579 445
580 445
581 445
582 445
583 445
584 445
585 450
586 450
587 453
588 453
589 454
590 454
591 454
592 459
593 462
594 465
595 466
596 467
597 467
598 467
599 467
600 467
601 467
602 474
603 474
604 474
605 474
606 488
607 489
608 499
609 500
610 500
611 501
612 502
613 505
614 506
615 506
616 507
617 507
618 507
619 508
620 508
621 508
622 508
623 508
624 509
625 512
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under
affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license
application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the
document again?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making
a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block
printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address
book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book
which you have before you----
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were
addressing yourself was what?
Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in
your address book with what?
Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.
Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application?
Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses
a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in
my phone book, most of it being block upper case.
Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents
is----
Mrs. PAINE. Is similar.
Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you.
Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with
particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is
misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that
sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very
bad misspellings.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas
State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license,"
on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee";
over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."
The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and
occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving,
Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became
acquainted with them?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone
else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday,
October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation"
appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes,
gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown;
height, 5 foot 9 inches.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment?
Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race.
Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of
questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they
are from 1 to 12, as follows:
"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a
Texas license?"
Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.
"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?
"Have you ever held a license in any other State?
"Have you ever been denied a license?
"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked,
or canceled?
"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to
stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent
homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"
All answered in the negative.
"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?
"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?
"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular
control?
"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or
narcotic drugs?
"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"
And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental
illness?"
The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing
appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals
with the record of his examination.
I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer
this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found
among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure
hearsay.
Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it?
Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI.
The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the
document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to
qualify it.
Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it?
Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document
in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No.
112, vol. I, p. 113.]
Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification
questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit
427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand
corner. Are you familiar with that signature?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating
to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur?
Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September,
when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have
the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he
equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year
by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it
was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.
Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose----
Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to
Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his----
Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary----
Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you take that document with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?
Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it
to him.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of
Marina Oswald's second child.
Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina,
if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could
receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no
cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.
Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered
some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you
vacationed in the summer of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.
Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where
you visited, without telling us what you did.
Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of
Massachusetts.
Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. With your children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?
Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?
Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all.
Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one
night.
Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went
on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs,
until the early part of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me
if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.
Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?
Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?
Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in
connection with----
Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.
Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?
Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother
during that summer period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island,
and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in
Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there
at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in
Baltimore.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?
Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?
Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.
Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?
Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia
area, while I was at Paoli.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the
sense I would mean friends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?
Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And
then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond,
Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my
home in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with
Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your
going along, had you?
Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New
Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house
for the birth of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return
or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming
to be with you for the birth of the child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining
you on a semipermanent basis?
Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am
anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you
paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association
with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.
Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject,
but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this
morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.
Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the
morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.
Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is
what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2
nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At
one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came
and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This
was after I had made a telephone call to her.
Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?
Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.
Mr. JENNER. Grown?
Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been
studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role
that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some
slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip
to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did,
at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed
in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better
impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had
seen him, which was in May.
I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was
concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could
go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the
possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through
Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and
pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.
I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his
being interested in having it that way.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3
days?
Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.
Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion
between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee
on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with
you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child
in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was
there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and
would be seeking a position?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English.
I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted
himself to speak with you in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application
was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't
know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was
arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And
he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"
"Yes, she knew it."
Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.
Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of
what he had done as I ever got from him.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.
I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give
your reaction.
Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the end?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's
activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.
The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the
name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the
assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he
say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba
literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused
some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.
Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned
that as a possible----
Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?
Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost
his job before this happened.
Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba
incident?
Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance
where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in
which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and
his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United
States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.
Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your
presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they
weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This
is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you
raised it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular
conversation, have you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations
between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time
was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had
been when I first was in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina
and Lee when you were there in the spring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in
New Orleans. You found the situation different?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring
Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day.
It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?
Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been
cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put
away. And I believe he did some packing.
Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with
Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with
the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of
the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him
at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by
preference to having me handle it.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction.
Did he seem eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and
we left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you
and Marina were on tour?
Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only
arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open
on Sunday?
Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.
Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be----
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite
eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the
ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.
Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the
gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your
part to have a question in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the
first I saw him taking that much interest.
Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would
you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do
during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all
three of you.
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the
children, having all small children, all of us having small children.
Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you
be good enough to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend.
He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two
girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for
girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen
him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best
of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I
loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was
about. But I might if I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Was it an English book?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of
Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember.
It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something
like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would
have read that, anyway.
Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you
that summer? Ten Days----
Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for
sure whether I have that one.
Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?
Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection
of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they
included history and literature and English.
Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian
at Saint Marks School in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of
things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from
many points of view regarding Soviet life.
Representative FORD. I interrupted you.
Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during
those 2 days and 3 nights.
Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and
stayed while they were done and went back.
Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina
and I went.
Mr. JENNER. He remained home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer,
with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or
Monday.
No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether,
because Sunday was the day before we left.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.
Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in
college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly
overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.
Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently
and had slides that she had taken that summer.
Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no
command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to
contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew
Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek
out someone who could talk to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as
far as you knew?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in
the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of
Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by
then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat
on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and
other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was
another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.
We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it
seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and
we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther
than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't
going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only
my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was
open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.
Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and
visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one
and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering
something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to
cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect
that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it
was at least a gesture.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.
Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any
small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her
in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to
New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your
acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially
or anything at all to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that
when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get
an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards
renting a furnished apartment for his family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in
fact ever give you any money?
Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give
Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other
occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time
close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some
shoes.
Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not
certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday
afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the
process of packing of the car?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee
Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any
sympathy for him at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he
might not be seeing Marina any more?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in
Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he
mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the
investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the
presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the
subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for
work, or possibly to Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or
friends in either of those towns?
Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he
said or which might have been said in your presence that after you
girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look----
Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we
left.
Mr. JENNER. Promptly?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to
Houston, or what was the other town?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was
there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any
respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything
on the subject of Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this
interim period?
Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I
think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee
rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about
any particular time, he would see Marina again.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then
again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly
see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here.
As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that
indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember
just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to,
shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about
the husband, where is the husband?
Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for
work or something? What shall I say about you?
Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I
asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?
He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."
And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear
or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might
make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until
Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you
and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex.,
or to Philadelphia to look for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or
driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified,
the supposed friend?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time?
Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one.
Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder?
Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated
for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this
was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the
Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a
contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something
unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about
it. But this thought crossed my mind.
Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards
trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job
hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return
home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he
would be home before noontime.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh?
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in
New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was
job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was
operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw
him.
Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr.
Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs.
Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were
limited, were they not?
Mrs. PAINE. They were limited.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period
when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that
Marina was with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that
they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your
really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr.
Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of
time?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights
in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home
substantially all of that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until
he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what
was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October
4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday,
to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it
from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you
use a car.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about
his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public
transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the
problems in that connection?
Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical
problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far
was it from your home?
Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going
to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10
minute car ride.
Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus
terminal to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Walking?
Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation.
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public.
Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have
to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the
12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.
Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice
of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been
in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first
one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one
of the papers.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that
knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other
things that had happened.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at
our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was
out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could
wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press,
which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he
convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was
doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin,
and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It
wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I
did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER. It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It
was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember
it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after
the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left
in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and
looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and
found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso,
the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely.
Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was
rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this
book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the
price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the
back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation,
"Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there
in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it,
which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture
postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this
dictionary, and these I gave to the----
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime
prior to this occasion that you have now described?
Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed
to be that, seen it, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident.
Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a
letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will
obtain the rough draft here among my notes.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday.
He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you
are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests
your attention to that particular date?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough
draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And
the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also
on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the
living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed,
so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her
high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved
something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.
Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or
to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had
peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page
in it, but I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious?
Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a
scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of
my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.
Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this,
a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence
arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then
proceeded----
Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes
of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document
in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No.
385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is
an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined
that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document
you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what
was said; yes.
Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is
literal.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in
English.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you
have the transcript of it before you?
Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other
words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now
interested in my activities."
Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing
this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to
have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I
had some cause to look at it.
Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is
short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it
aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?
Mr. McCLOY. Without objection.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have
it there.
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out----
Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too.
Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs:
"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade
Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after
he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It
was that same day.
Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was
closed, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the
letter on the morning of November 10.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk
the previous evening.
"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered
useless--)"--because--it is crossed out.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there
are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in
parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words
"crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.
Proceed, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican
visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.
"(I had a--crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an
extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.
"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all
ready ha--crossed out).
"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive
organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans,
La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am--crossed out) no
longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state.
"(November the November--crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in
Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that
if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again
take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could
'remain in the U.S. under FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse
to return to the--crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course
I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.
"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in
Mexico City but--crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico
City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I
been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed
out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have
been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist
me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the
stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been
replaced by another."
Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your
reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on
Sunday morning, the 10th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought
were untrue.
Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue.
Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that
alarmed you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. What were they?
Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy.
Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And
decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming
again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document?
Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among
your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it,
while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way,
but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday
on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.
Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in
the room?
Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice
or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it
was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it
was untrue that the FBI came----
Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said----
Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice.
Mr. JENNER. November 1 and----
Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it
whatever.
Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to
be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being
put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if
she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being
told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and
false both.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is
concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of
your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or
anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not.
Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import.
Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of
the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that
period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or
have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States
was seeking to induce her to defect?
Mrs. PAINE. To the United States?
Mr. JENNER. To the United States.
Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely
different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I
read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.
Mr. JENNER. Is who?
Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is
a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that
the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present,
"they visited I and my wife."
Mr. JENNER. Was he present?
Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife
protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.
Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November
1. Was Marina present then?
Mrs. PAINE. She was present.
Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November
5?
Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short
visit was concluded.
Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one?
Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply
asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him
since.
Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think
this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for
confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the
weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes
in Germany at the time.
He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not
to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence
to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by
hearsay or public accusation.
He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say
the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if
I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived?
No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.
Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.
And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and
the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the
employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so
far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in
talking to Lee.
I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods
and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter,
and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the
reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false
name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an
assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.
Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that
he used an assumed name, was there not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this----
Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was
a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it
should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He
addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make
an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that
impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make
an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my
mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I
left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and
let them conclude or add it to what they knew.
I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two
things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.
One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I
had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI
agent who was asking the address of where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.
Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that
followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for
the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your
copy of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk.
I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that
Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. He had left?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.
Mr. JENNER. He had not left?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to
come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the
letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all
the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or
the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't
go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story,
if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him
saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say,
"What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I
didn't know what to do.
Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to
the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I
find on my desk."
Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.
Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I
sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real
upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."
He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility
of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was
keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and
it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and
we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I
excused myself and went to bed.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter
and the original?
Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of
November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I
said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.
Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the
original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy
with respect to the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Prior.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative
document?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts
about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this
was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.
I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had
no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no
connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so
much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it.
Supposing that I had?
Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated
during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you
have disclosed this document to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at
all comfortable in having even.
Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?
Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that
Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time
to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now
certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in
seeing him.
Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.
Representative FORD. Handwritten?
Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I
only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave
him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name
and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I
gave this to Lee the weekend he came.
Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that
would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.
Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what
day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the
following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on
the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the
recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the
downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note.
And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.
Mr. JENNER. Irritating?
Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought.
This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and
his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was
specifically said to him later.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit
my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well
have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to
say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.
He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there,
and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest
to them for years to come.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my
feeling.
I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited,
do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing
pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he
had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would
too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my
interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said,
however, on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few
weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing,
thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part.
But it appears to have been another lie.
Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to
cover that as a separate subject.
Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like
to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being
parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the
fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee
Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to
Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with
the various materials?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.
Mr. JENNER. Who did that?
Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night
on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too,
and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about
where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the
binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.
Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of
luggage placed in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I
could move, he put those in.
Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.
Mr. JENNER. With what?
Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.
Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which
might have led you to believe----
Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.
Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including
quite a small one, and the little radio.
Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I
don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is
important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not
certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he
first arrived.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels
because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them
on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you
described yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even
recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?
Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece
of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at
4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the
moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described
yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with
you to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a
blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your
clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't
as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was
leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or
character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of
that nature.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when
your station wagon was unpacked?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.
Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station
wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the
two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you
reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package----
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later.
Mr. JENNER. Not until later.
Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall
it specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are
referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it
to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am
exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket
familiar to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.
Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first
saw it.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my
garage sometime in late October.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before
that time?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never
seen this binding until last night.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what
appears to be some black binding?
Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.
Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.
Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had
always been on it, is that what you mean to say?
Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.
Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the
previous occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it
closely.
Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Didn't move it?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.
Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.
Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first
saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had
returned to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in
your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine
Street when you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there.
Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?
Mrs. PAINE. That is true.
Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the
blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in
the form of a package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it
is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?
Mrs. PAINE. About like so.
Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of
the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.
Representative FORD. That is across lying flat.
Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you.
Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the
occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there
were parallel strings around it.
Mr. JENNER. Tied?
Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.
Mr. JENNER. How many were there?
Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well
spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now.
Mrs. PAINE. Is four.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four.
Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the
blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something
inside the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have
a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did.
Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any
discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it.
Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice
that package in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be
at all certain about when I first noticed it.
Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a
different position or places in your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. And the first was where?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?
Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw.
Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on
the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work
bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.
Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat
on the floor or was it upended?
Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead
you to step on it or feel it in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald
things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine
tools.
Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of
yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.
Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now.
Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is
reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage
interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now
exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.
Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and
in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you
place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on
floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was
talking about, right here.
Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper
middle section of the photograph.
Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door
or----
Mr. DULLES. The first location of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under
this box here.
Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this
bandsaw.
Mrs. PAINE. On the floor.
Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is
pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being
about the upper middle. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.
Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to
the interior than its first location.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the
document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified
as Commission Exhibit 429.
Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted.
(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded
blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle
being dismantled.
May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the
package from end to end, and it does not----
Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter?
Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there.
Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that----
Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped
package that you saw on your garage floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.
Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was
of the length?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely.
Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when
you stepped on the package----
Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it.
Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact
with it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in
it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it
was tied pull it in or distort the shape?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape.
Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape.
Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the
contents of the package firm, is that your impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in
connection with the moving of the package?
Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to.
Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved
the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer
to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he
was----
Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the
assassination he had not complained about its being there or any
difficulty in moving it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he
moved it.
Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various
woodworking pieces of equipment?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in
the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat
filled up.
Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back
he didn't work in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws.
Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to
think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. Or around it.
Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you
never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move
it in any way?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.
Mr. JENNER. There were only two?
Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Only two.
Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the
second one.
Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake.
Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.
Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is
an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is
the first location point at which you saw the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph
there is a double X.
Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described
is more accurate than the XX.
Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on
it.
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand.
Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package,
on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look
at it?
Mr. McCLOY. You may.
We are back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the
floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The
rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which
operates the rifle which forced it up higher.
Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the
other had been.
Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is
Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have
ever seen it?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the
police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the
strap.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of
November in the police station that it had a strap?
Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall
it. I was interested in the sight.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of
November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in
the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or
a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit
139?
Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that
nature.
Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else?
Mrs. PAINE. Precisely.
Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy
wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap
packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the
wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly
isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway,
couldn't it, possibly?
Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that.
Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade.
Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?
Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my
recollection has there ever been.
Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll.
Mr. JENNER. A whole roll?
Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching
to this wrapping?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that
wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the
string that you normally used in your home for packages?
Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin.
Representative FORD. Color was the same?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of
the rolls I have is that.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the
lighter weight type and not----
Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color.
Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the
packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags,
they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at
any time thereafter?
Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already
referred to.
Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?
Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word.
Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon.
Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period
about where Lee was or might be?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact
that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina
discuss during that 10-day period?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was
after; general conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?
Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she
would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in
Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and
their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood
come and visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and
which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless----
Mr. JENNER. And interested people?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly
Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was
how many doors down or across the street?
Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home.
She is the young German woman to whom I referred.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of
Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no
word had been heard from Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during
that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that
10 days period?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't
heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2
weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I
thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.
Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the
day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not
even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a
telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.
Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either.
Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard,
there was no letter?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none.
Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston.
Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d,
because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia,
your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia
reference was very slight.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and
Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston
looking for work?
Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at
all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee.
All right.
You heard from him on the 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time
of day and how it came about?
Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.
Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it
was Lee's.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from
you, where have you been?"
Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak
to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then
asked. I heard her say to him----
Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
What did you hear her say?
Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick
you up."
Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Throughout?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or
Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine,
"Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood,
she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."
Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.
Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".
To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her
little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.
Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you
heard?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"
Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward.
She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to
pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.
Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never
asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an
imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. That morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then
she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and
had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you
call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon
getting to town?"
Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course,
during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he
come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.
Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.
So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when----
Mr. JENNER. You left the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I left the home.
Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything
that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to
you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work
in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the
weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to
Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she
reported it to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having
made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he
hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.
What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get
there? Was there any discussion of that?
Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to----
Mr. JENNER. He was coming?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.
Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you?
Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to
Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I
thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it
would be at least supper time before he got there.
Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the
time you returned?
Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a
little less.
Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping?
Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we
practiced.
Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means
he had come from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride
with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.
Mr. JENNER. To your door?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife
and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought
him directly to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place?
Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon,
wasn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside?
Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that
10-day interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been?
Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he
hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about
Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been
in Houston looking for work?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or
22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in
Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of
November in which he stated that he had been?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may
have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to
my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso,
this would have been the only occasion that she knew.
Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there
was no conversation on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning----
The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about
giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or
for a blood bank?
Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in
under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a
time.
The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?
Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in
fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.
Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that.
I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or
not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever
seen that before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey
Oswald on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but,
of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have
job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and
I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station,
one of these.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this
document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave
Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the
identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map
of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the
kind I had in mind.
Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been
changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this
is the document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be
something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed
thereon or Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.
Mr. JENNER. On other occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a
marking that I had made.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular
map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and
you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.
All right, now tell us about that incident?
Mrs. PAINE. The map?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular
places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion.
Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I
said, yes, I do, you may have it.
Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his
room or his and Marina's room and place it there?
Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when
this conversation occurred and took it with him.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as
yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence,
therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore
identified by that exhibit number.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No.
128 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job
hunting?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out
already to go in our car to the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. She did not?
Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went
with me, I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June?
Mrs. PAINE. June.
Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from
your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas
before he left?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather
expensive. He was going to look for a room.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October.
Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove
him all the way into Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. At any time?
Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver
training test.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my
memory. I can't think of any other.
Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus
terminal in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board
the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to
the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area,
because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I
may know why I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first.
Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I
was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.
Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas
School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he
applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is
not quite as clear.
I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I
recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and
something else, which was near the employment office.
Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to
get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me
downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip
just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along
and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner
and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed
either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the
12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.
Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him
to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he
might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to
ask if he could come out for the weekend.
Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call?
Mrs. PAINE. Pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to
come?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that?
Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of
November.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments.
Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into
Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children?
Mrs. PAINE. We always take them.
Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you
picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of
October, what did he have----
Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.
Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after----
Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston
looking for a job?
Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
It is that occasion that I have in mind.
What did he have with him in the way of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I
remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with
him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts,
things that are hung on hangers.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip----
Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the
afternoon of the 4th.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper
bag on Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. The 7th.
Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of
his returning to downtown Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing
there.
That is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?
Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of
luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that
afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any
recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him
when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?
Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But
that is the best I have.
Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow?
Mrs PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any
discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and
her understanding of them?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. None at all.
What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject
matter with respect to his weekend visits?
Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come
out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got
into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as
best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to
say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the----
Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between
you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or
the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you
with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee
at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs.
Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the
last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and
that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in
its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for
work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't
found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four
young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that
her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person
at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.
Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would
call----
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation
going on.
Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her?
Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came
home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if
indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I
did telephone----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any
discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle
or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be
made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a
suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.
Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now
testifying to?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you
please call the Texas School Depository?"
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told
I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone
was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said----
Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?
Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife
was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already
had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was
very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there
a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know
whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in
person.
Mr. JENNER. Which made sense.
Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book
Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Only the one?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the one.
Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call?
Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what
did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.
Mr. JENNER. In the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me
to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible
job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the
School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I
go on?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. The next day----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was
concerned.
Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the
conversation in the Roberts' home.
Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School
Depository mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to
possible places of employment?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other
places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be
unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would
be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was
lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes
your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly
know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell
Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.
Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the
possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of
getting there.
Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car?
Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment
to operate it?
Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson
on the 13th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was.
Mr. JENNER. Especially that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of
the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to
him, this is the 14th?
Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone
number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an
entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not?
Would you turn to that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here.
Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository
on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment
there.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this
possibility?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas
School Book Depository on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the
Texas School Depository Building where----
Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street.
Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse.
Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one
of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas
School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building
that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book
Depository.
I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings
and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the
telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I
didn't.
The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard
on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had
been fired from such a building.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to
emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey
Oswald was employed?
Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.
Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact,
pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after
he had gained employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he
actually was employed, that is the location of the building?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young
Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where
the place of employment is located?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I
have already referred----
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.----
Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in
Dallas," does not give a time of day.
Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday.
Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when
the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the
evening.
If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as
to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that
he was looking and was discouraged.
I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would
get a job at the School Book Depository.
I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in
respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School
Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had
been accepted and said he would start work the next day.
Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual
practice of calling in the early evening.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll
call?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents?
Mrs. PAINE. I expect so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What happened?
Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina.
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself?
Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone.
Did you hear her end of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling
me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for
work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We
must thank Mrs. Randle."
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the
YMCA?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the
circumstances, please?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been
during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so.
He rarely talked with me when he was out.
Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what?
Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October,
the same weekend.
Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the
7th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October.
Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th.
Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you
came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was
given to you.
Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a
room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.
Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected?
Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in
other words.
Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?
Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th.
Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation
between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the
baby actually arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone
number?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone
number--did you record it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what?
Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book.
Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in
which you have made that recording?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.
Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave
you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985.
Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know,
Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.
Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the
apartment or room was?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are
other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him
by?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given
to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in
connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald,
Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number
subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.
Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under
which you received a second number?
Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't
recall.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again
it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.
Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. What?
Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your
home and gave you the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that
he gave it to you in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a
week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he
was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but
that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges
and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.
Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School
Book Depository, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even
the area in Dallas where his second room was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. No address?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as
to when you might call him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation.
Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by
other than his surname by which you knew him?
Mrs. PAINE. No such indication.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the----
Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth.
Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?
Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed
at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping
while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the
hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. What day?
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one
of his regular visits?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment.
Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it.
Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the
particular circumstances of the call.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had
a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not
right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had
gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear
what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that
he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.
Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the
hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I
should get back to my children.
Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night.
Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night.
He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I
considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news
there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would
have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went
to bed and told him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if
he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I
assume you told him that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that
evening.
Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him.
Mr. JENNER. At least you did not?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go
to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and
encouraged him to go.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go?
Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind
that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had
already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital
when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his
mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.
Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go?
Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one
admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not
permitted to get in.
Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned
home with him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him?
Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following
morning, that is the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also.
Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday.
Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party
for him?
Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home.
Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?
Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday,
the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was
the week before, too. I was wrong then.
Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.
Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his
position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend
when he came home?
Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is
Friday to Sunday, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out
whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw
some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not.
So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was
a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of
Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?
Mr. JENNER. Which weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best
recollection anyway.
Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was
nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of
November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend.
That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application
bureau, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of
Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his
reporting his visit to Mexico.
Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not
fully credit.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of
November 15 through 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to.
Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination
day?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to?
Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend
which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans
Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more
comfortable if he didn't come out.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on
that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that?
Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my
little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I
was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone
conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go
himself to the driver training station.
Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this
afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.
Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would
want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a
little recess now.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or
question and answer?
(The reporter read the question and answer.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that
you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How
long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't
think I can fix it more exactly.
Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards?
You returned on September 24?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that
marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I
recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.
Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to
fix it at the latter part of October?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something?
Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when
you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember.
Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later
was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near.
Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed
to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later.
Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at
all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the
assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?
Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a
package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I
cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I
certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon
at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you did not----
Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it.
Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question,
you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the
assassination that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into
the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that
time.
Mr. JENNER. On the 22d?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically.
Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that.
Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any
purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time
that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston,
if he went to Houston?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in
October, therefore.
Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think?
Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.
Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter
read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and
17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to
your home.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not
to come that particular weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that
weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your
attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.
Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to
him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to
my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and
you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over
what night it was.
Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it
occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your
home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you
recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to
Lee and you did so at her request?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone
already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to
attempt to get a driver's license permit.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called
Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had
called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very
day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he
had given me, with his number in my telephone book.
Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call
papa" and asked me----
Mr. JENNER. Was this at night?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light.
Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of
that.
Mr. JENNER. Was it----
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.
Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday,
was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was.
Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday
preceding November 22?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that
was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any
annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?
Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on
the phone.
Mr. DULLES. I realize that.
Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I
didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.
Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone
messages which we are now discussing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same
telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there
was no irritation I noticed.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to
come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing
but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?
Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that.
Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state,
you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you
in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked
me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had
given us. I then dialed the number----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?
Mrs. PAINE. The second number.
Mr. JENNER. And that number is?
Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993.
Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the
person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that
effect.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is
nobody by that name here"?
Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know
Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.
Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name?
Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person
who answered was a man?
Mrs. PAINE. Was a man.
Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would
like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what
occurred?
You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee
Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of
what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said,
"Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.
Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that
number."
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything.
Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.
Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you,
you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker
practice, and I don't normally do it that way.
Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice?
Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister."
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out
forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him.
Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about
the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.
Mr. JENNER. But you did?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it
important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after
I asked you the next.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this
telephone call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called----
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the
kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly
was upset, and angry, and when she hung up----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific
content.
Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall
what was said?
Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately
after, which is what I definitely recall.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach
him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry
with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a
different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22
fires," a Russian expression.
Mr. JENNER. This is something she said?
Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the
first time she had mentioned it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again.
Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires.
Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask
for an explanation?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant,
she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like,
empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.
Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it----
Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short.
Mr. DULLES. Fairly short.
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was
this?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each
other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back
on Tuesday.
Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon
or early evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening,
around 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung
up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset.
Mr. JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the
assumed name?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had
used it.
Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and
Marina on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a
day.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?
Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for
normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done
something he didn't want her to do, the objection.
Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was
there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on
that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.
Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st
with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he
was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come
without asking whether he could.
Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without
asking your permission to come?
Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina,
who was also out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the
car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may
have happened.
Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee
Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion.
Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on
the side.
Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him.
Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded
because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without
permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or
later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up
the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on
the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything
else.
Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and
unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your
not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and
Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached
the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to
see if he could make up with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note
what he did?
Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my
children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me
in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already
gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage
to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an
hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I
felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone
out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most
of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They
were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold
weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage,
but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished
my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he
was in the garage?
Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather
than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and
I know I didn't leave the light on.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the
garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he
retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact
that you discovered the light on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Before you retired?
Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work
there?
Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly
recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words
between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them?
Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me
some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly
on the lawn as we----
Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina.
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed
warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one
thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just
come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."
And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a
common reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this
happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer.
Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.
Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that
the President was coming into town the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee
that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort.
Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.
Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following
dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out
of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were
conscious of the fact he was not in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the
house, conscious of it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house
anytime that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and
probably after some dishes were done.
Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes?
Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I
normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed
occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the
back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting
them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour?
Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour.
Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock,
are we?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from
6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put
the children to bed.
Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of
their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the
garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it.
Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way
whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but
that is about all I recall that he did.
Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal.
Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper?
Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your
children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well
as you can the time of evening.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9
o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was
already retired?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like
any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers,
laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the
one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. You and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking
about making a playhouse for the children.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on
the lawn when you returned that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it.
Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring--do you know
whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or
luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character
that you have identified around your home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was
dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he
have----
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket.
Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?
Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the
T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his
T-shirt that night?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him
when you saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't
reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me
she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have
her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this
particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first
thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's
movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able
to recall. Would you try to do that for us?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do
it again if you like.
Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch
of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in
the garage. Was it from out here?
Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.
Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway,
opened the door, there was the light on.
Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was
closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?
Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here.
Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door.
Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage
painting some blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. What part of the garage----
Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.
Representative FORD. The entrance going into the----
Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area.
Right here.
Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and
make a place, a block is this big, to paint.
Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was
at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day----
Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand
side?
Mrs. PAINE. Beyond.
Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions?
Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the
document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the
morning I will qualify the exhibit.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that all?
We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Friday, March 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made
affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation?
Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed?
Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr.
Chairman, may I qualify some documents?
The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs.
Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which
you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of
October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in
the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how
you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago.
Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you
mailed it to your mother?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page
not being relative to this case.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you
have the other page?
Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page.
Mr. JENNER. May I have it?
Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission
Exhibit No. ----.
Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it----
Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be
patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two
sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at
the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of
it. Is that your signature?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document
in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has
now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the
Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context
in which the statements that are relevant were made.
You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to
be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was
thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter
in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would
you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only
handwriting of his I have seen.
Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you
familiar enough with his handwriting----
Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting?
Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it?
Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't
believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of
the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say
10th?
Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.
Senator COOPER. What is the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. It is that document.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen
the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you
saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald
asked you if he could use your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter
or at least some document?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion
of it arrested your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed
document or was it the document that is before you?
Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is
before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.
Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you
make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?
Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this,
Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which
you saw in your home on your desk secretary?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No.
103 the document--oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.
Senator COOPER. It is in evidence.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has
already been admitted in evidence.
Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked
as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for
identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine
home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference
to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday
afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an
accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving,
Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.
Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and
sections of the home properly entitled?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the
hallways in your home and the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the
upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square
space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area
immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining
area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is
designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the
words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space,
that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion
of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an
arrow, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the
garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification,
is that a front view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is
that a view of the east side of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know.
Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of
your home?
Mrs. PAINE. West and north.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home
looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway
area leading to the backyard of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission
Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in
your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered
"kitchen-dining area."
Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion.
Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which
is unlettered?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way,
have you ever been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan
and pictures of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?
Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr.
Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in
existence.
I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle
Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor
plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. On several occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle
home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate
floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and
true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of
the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you----
Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there
and I am not certain.
Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan.
Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking
then west.
Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate
picture of the front of the kitchen?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now?
Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444,
is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a
view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Across the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of
the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport
from the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the
carport; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the
carport?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the
carport area of the Randle home?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it.
Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking
toward the Randle home, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of
the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also
your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate.
Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448----
Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just
referred to?
Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home
at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your
attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph
showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a
view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that
point to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an
accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West
Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?
Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that.
Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine
and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is,
a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street
and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is
shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the
street and on the corner is likewise shown.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate?
Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate.
Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits
which she has identified?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich
if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer,
please.
Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to
return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee
Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?
Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the
21st.
Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you
had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would
appear on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none.
Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to
the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed
you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that
her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances
that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in
Irving, Tex., that afternoon.
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he
was on the front lawn at my house.
Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that
moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just
identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the
floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and
testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448
both inclusive, and 450 and 452.
Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and
452 were received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for
our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be
back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.
Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon,
whom do you want to preside?
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?
Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a
conference out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you?
Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary.
The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?
Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town.
The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me
at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and
come over.
Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come
back this afternoon.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for
coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.
Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can.
The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary.
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and
the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard.
As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in
which direction were you coming?
Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east?
Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw
Lee in your courtyard?
Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.
Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?
Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?
Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back.
Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be?
Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the
sidewalk.
Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?
Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front
of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position
in the driveway.
Mr. JENNER. In your driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the
driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing
across the seat and get out at the right hand door?
Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you
go into your home directly? Did you walk around?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front
lawn.
Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well?
Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was
playing with June.
Mr. JENNER. How was he attired?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that
whatever it was was tucked in.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he
was there?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did.
Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had
appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from
you for him to appear?
Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked
permission prior to coming.
Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this
moment?
Mrs. PAINE. No exception.
Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the
afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?
Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass
at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me
in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry
he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said
"Why, that is all right."
Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. And nothing was----
Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any
explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced
and unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee
Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as
I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that
place, position?
Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it.
Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do.
Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car.
Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing
just inside the doorway.
Mr. JENNER. Of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Of my home.
Mr. JENNER. But inside the home?
Mrs. PAINE. But inside now.
Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the
doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud
speaker. I was facing this way.
Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to
speak to Lee as he came in.
Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into
your home.
Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room
and the position he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us.
Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in,
having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which
I refer.
Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker?
Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is
a big thing.
Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment?
Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President
is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is
coming to town in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it
again.
Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on
and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent
possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee
Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee
Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the
house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave
your presence then and go to some other part of your home?
Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He
didn't leave the house to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in
the general area in which you were in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.
Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best
recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.
Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the
bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started
supper.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the
inside of the house while you were doing this?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the
yard during this period?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It
would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.
Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were
you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance
to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a
picture of that area of your home, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald
in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage
while I was preparing dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at
anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing
dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess.
Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know.
Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was
inside the house or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she
was inside or outside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. She was inside.
Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your
home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also
inside the house?
Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.
Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas.
By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still
light?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late
November?
Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate
it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.
Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you f
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