Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)
by United States. Warren Commission · English · Gutenberg #44002 · 1,833,535 chars · public domain (US)
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)
This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere in the United States and
most other parts of the world at no cost and with almost no restrictions
whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms
of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online
at www.gutenberg.org. If you are not located in the United States,
you will have to check the laws of the country where you are located
before using this eBook.
Title: Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)
Author: United States. Warren Commission
Release date: October 19, 2013 [eBook #44002]
Most recently updated: October 23, 2024
Language: English
Other information and formats: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44002
Credits: Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard,
and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at
http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by
www.history-matters.com.
*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (02 OF 26): HEARINGS VOL. II (OF 15) ***
INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ II
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O'BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume II:
James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as the business
manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald; Mark Lane, a New York attorney; William
Robert Greer, who was driving the President's car at the time of the
assassination; Roy H. Kellerman, a Secret Service agent who sat to the
right of Greer; Clinton J. Hill, a Secret Service agent who was in
the car behind the President's car; Rufus Wayne Youngblood, a Secret
Service agent who rode in the car with then Vice President Johnson;
Robert Hill Jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the
end of the motorcade; Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Jr.,
and Amos Lee Euins, who were present at the assassination scene; Buell
Wesley Frazier, who drove Lee Harvey Oswald home on the evening of
November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Linnie Mae
Randle, Buell Wesley Frazier's sister; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms
identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation;
William Wayne Whaley, a taxicab driver, and Cecil J. McWatters, a
busdriver, who testified concerning Oswald's movements following the
assassination; Mrs. Katherine Ford, Declan P. Ford, and Peter Paul
Gregory, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Comdr. James
J. Humes, Comdr. J. Thornton Boswell, and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck,
who performed the autopsy on the President at Bethesda Naval Hospital;
and Michael R. Paine and Ruth Hyde Paine, acquaintances of Lee Harvey
Oswald and his wife.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of--
James Herber Martin (resumed) 1
Mark Lane 32
Roy H. Kellerman 61
William Robert Greer 112
Clinton J. Hill 132
Rufus Wayne Youngblood 144
Robert Hill Jackson 155
Arnold Louis Rowland 165
James Richard Worrell, Jr 190
Amos Lee Euins 201
Buell Wesley Frazier 210
Linnie Mae Randle 245
Cortlandt Cunningham 251
William Wayne Whaley 253, 292
Cecil J. McWatters 262
Katherine Ford 295
Declan P. Ford 322
Peter Paul Gregory 337
James J. Humes 348
J. Thornton Boswell 376
Pierre A. Finck 377
Michael R. Paine 384
Ruth Hyde Paine 430
COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Exhibit No.: Page
328 1
329 2
330 2
331 15
332 22
333 29
334 38
335 38
336 38
337 38
338 38
339 38
340 38
341 38
342 38
343 54
344 64
345 64
346 65
347 72
348 72
349 85
350 86
351 92
352 95
353 95
354 155
355 155
356 189
357 189
358 189
359 198
360 198
361 198
362 198
365 210
366 210
367 210
368 257
369 257
370 261
371 257
372 268
373 273
374 274
375 274
376 275
377 279
378 282
379 286
380 286
381-A 287
382 292
383-A 292
384 340
385 353
386 353
387 353
388 353
389 353
390 353
391 359
392 362
393 365
394 365
395 365
396 367
397 374
398 374
399 374
400 380
401 445
402 455
403 477
404 479
404-A 479
405 480
406 480
407 483
408 483
408-A 483
409 490
409-A 490
409-B 490
410 494
411 496
412 496
413 496
414 496
415 498
416 498
417 498
418 498
419 500
420 501
421 501
422 502
423 502
424 502
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
_Thursday, February 27, 1964--Afternoon Session_
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order.
Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich?
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper
clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would
ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create
an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the
reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to
each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of
these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her.
Mr. DULLES. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we
don't need to touch them again.
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper
clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate
duplicate facts as we go along.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything
to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas----
Mr. REDLICH. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment
on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the
record wouldn't state what they are about.
Are you going to make comment?
Mr. MARTIN. Do you want me to?
Mr. REDLICH. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel
there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in
evidence, since apparently you are.
Mr. MARTIN. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is
concerned.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we
have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328.
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life
of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there
are any inaccuracies in that statement.
Mr. MARTIN. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an
Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room,
somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child
spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from
Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex."
That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in
our home.
Mr. DULLES. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall
until 7:30 in the evening.
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving.
Mr. DULLES. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in
your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day.
This one--
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper
story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline
of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark."
Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in
evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for
identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it
is inaccurate in any respect.
Mr. MARTIN. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort
Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and
the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached
$76,000."
The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That
was her total. That is the inaccuracy there.
Mr. DULLES. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole
collections?
Mr. MARTIN. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called
her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had
collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she
was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been
sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money.
Mr. DULLES. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not?
Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.
Mr. DULLES. The total collections?
Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund
on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have
no connection.
I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the
offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact
that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife.
Mr. MARTIN. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any
conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that
there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. You were not aware?
Mr. MARTIN. Not aware, no.
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the
Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News,
December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported
Hoping to be U.S. Citizen."
This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask
that it be introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. None.
Mr. DULLES. Accepted.
(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No.
330 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330
and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your
knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which
is inaccurate--"Russian-born Mother of Three--"
Mr. REDLICH. Will you state the inaccuracy?
Mr. MARTIN. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of
Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears
when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic
Americans."
There was no burst of tears.
Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was?
Mr. MARTIN. I would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that
that was there, which is normal.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she told you?
Mr. MARTIN. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of
anything that she said?
Mr. DULLES. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to
another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly
Americans who were giving this money?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another.
I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I
think it was further on.
Mr. DULLES. On a similar occasion?
Mr. MARTIN. A little later date, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which
the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina
Oswald as you knew them.
Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these
clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the
public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you
knew on the basis of your contact with her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends
money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last
very long at the rate it is going.
Mr. REDLICH. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss
with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she
was married to Lee Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for
$500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small
amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between
$130 and $135 a month.
Representative FORD. Did she complain about this limited amount?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she
said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would
get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to
it.
Representative FORD. But when more money became available she found
ways and means of spending it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that--I told her
she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all
gone I will go to work." That is----
Mr. DULLES. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to
the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the
amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf
actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had
actually been collected on her behalf.
Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports
correct in your opinion?
Mr. MARTIN. Which report?
Mr. REDLICH. The report----
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true.
Mr. REDLICH. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this
policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been
collected?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What was your reason for doing it?
Mr. MARTIN. To--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and
most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their
entire lifetime.
What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a--enough
capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by
keeping the figure down figured it would increase.
Mr. REDLICH. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a
little more specific about your reason?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause.
Mr. REDLICH. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the
public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her
cause?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to revert to a point that you made this
morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the
Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did
you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired?
Mr. MARTIN. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of
December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which
paid me to the 1st of January.
Mr. REDLICH. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your
conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact
of her husband's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you now----
Mr. MARTIN. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she
went to the Commission.
Mr. REDLICH. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was from newspaper accounts.
Mr. REDLICH. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina
about it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the
question of her knowledge about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--she told me when the FBI was questioning her
one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted
suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all,
and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what
else did she learn.
Mr. REDLICH. Who else was present at this conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think anybody.
Mr. REDLICH. Just you and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. DULLES. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that?
Mr. MARTIN. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. DULLES. At what time?
Mr. MARTIN. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met
her.
Mr. DULLES. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had
asked her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had
attempted suicide.
Mr. DULLES. And they asked her about it?
Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if
she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't
know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we
were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I
mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her
trip--of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip
to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about
that trip to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of
her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip
to Mexico?
Mr. MARTIN. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had.
Mr. REDLICH. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated
earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to
whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident.
Mr. MARTIN. Right.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less
importance than the Mexican trip?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you believe it now?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration
other than her say so.
Mr. REDLICH. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence
of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to
whether she should tell this Commission about it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I
didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do
was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases.
Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was
here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony
with her?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me,
"fine," and that was the end of it.
Mr. REDLICH. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about
to the FBI?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. That is the only one?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her
husband's rifle practice?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was
at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically
asked her at all, whether he practiced.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's
ownership of a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her,
did you discuss his ownership of a rifle?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked
her about that was how he got there and how he got back.
Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She said he walked and took the bus.
Mr. REDLICH. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General
Walker with?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there
were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed
through the news or I thought I was anyway.
Mr. REDLICH. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are
telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina
Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in
Dallas or in New Orleans.
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--I think I did discuss with her one time at the
rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the
owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove
up in a car.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?
Mr. MARTIN. The owner of the rifle range.
Mr. REDLICH. You say they drove up in a car?
Mr. MARTIN. He drove up in a car.
Mr. REDLICH. The owner of the rifle range?
Mr. MARTIN. No; Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Drove to the rifle range in a car?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And----
Mr. DULLES. Did he drive himself?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said
he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing,
and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself,
and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about
it?
Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.
Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal
conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account.
Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs.
Oswald concerning rifle practice?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee
Oswald's ability as a rifleman?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she
claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public
figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that
if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have
him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that
he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she
wouldn't have made the threat to him.
Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident,
Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with
regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you
her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about
having one in the house?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols?
Mr. MARTIN. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course,
she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came
up at all.
Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee
Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his
having a gun in the household?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald
ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and
Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and
I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called
her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's
trip to Moscow?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her
going out with this old boy friend?
Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him.
Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to
Moscow?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may
have but I don't recall.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee
Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he
was there?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and
came back the next day.
Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a
trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this
was a different trip from the one you are talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your
recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the
Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.
Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know.
Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her
husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood.
Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is
a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.
Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much,
is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met
Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?
Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she
wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I
couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.
Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were
not married.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other.
Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the
uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse
as an aunt and uncle.
Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?
Mr. MARTIN. Berlov?
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her
education, what school she attended?
Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade
school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade
school in high school or junior high, anyway.
Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. As any special training she received?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you?
Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished
pharmacy school.
Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or
schooling of a special nature.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee
might have had while he was in Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was
in Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.
Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work
he was doing?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some
kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't
know.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living
quarters in Minsk?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a
balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to
move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand
it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia
and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the
Russians couldn't get.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general
she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee
seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations
and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to
the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and
she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera.
Now, how much that cost, I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in
Russia?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got
by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine
their expenses there weren't high.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald
may have had apart from his job?
Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard
an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money
orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union
money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if
he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working,
and she said no.
Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she
lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?
Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the
pension.
Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this
Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's
conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties
had at the government building where she was working. Other than
talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United
States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth
out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was.
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in
the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?
Mr. MARTIN. Vodka.
Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could
observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?
Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day,
and occasionally she would drink some vodka.
Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs.
Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of
course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it
as far as that is concerned.
But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to
get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that
Marina has had.
Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what?
Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her
training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such
short notice.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would
say.
Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from
the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple
of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting
money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name
of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every
morning and she didn't like pancakes.
Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet
Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have
already discussed with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of
the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth
and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed
any of these individuals with you.
The first is George Bouhe.
Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned
him; Katya Ford has though.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr.
Bouhe?
Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are
friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in
seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now
this was after the news was out where she was.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with----
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was
with you in your house?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his
wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De
Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt
with anyone else?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was
interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee
Gopadze got there.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is?
Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul
Gregory with you?
Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one.
Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son.
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned
that she liked him.
Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she
corresponded with him.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We were--I think John Thorne and I were talking about
at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in
that instance.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.
Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student
at the University of Oklahoma?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had
helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any
personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No.
Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena
Hall?
Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything
on it.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by
letter, and----
Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the
letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I
called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So
I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time
she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.
Representative FORD. In Russian or in English?
Mr. MARTIN. In Russian.
Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived
in Mrs. Ford's home?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you?
Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.
Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs.
Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house
that they live in.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was
separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and----
Mr. DULLES. Once a week?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the
letters and didn't call her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she
couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.
Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house?
Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children
were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den,
and I don't believe she knew that she was there.
Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with
Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?
Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.
Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press?
Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine
came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was
there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it.
Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.
Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell
Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs.
Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in
the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.
Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Who did?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of
bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I
don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that
time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I
don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.
Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of
phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your
wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked
to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I
called her back.
Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back?
Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her?
Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just
didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit
her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some
middle point later on.
Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she
didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call
Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just
shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to
her?
Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and
she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs.
Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the
Oswald family to New Orleans and had----
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.
Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?
Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the
Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"?
Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was?
Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe
shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that
meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but
it was----
Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came?
Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house.
Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier
when she came to pick up a package?
Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package.
Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what
happened at that time?
Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a
stiff meeting or conversation.
Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?
Mr. MARTIN. No, my house.
Representative FORD. Your house?
Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food,
cookies, things like that, for Marina, and----
Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a
third----
Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail.
Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were,
I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the
living room making quite a bit of noise.
Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what
she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave
but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in,
I guess, 15 minutes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy----
Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed,
that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house,
I realize that.
Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she
didn't.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house
though, weren't they?
Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining
room.
Mr. DULLES. But not into the den?
Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen.
Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the
den off?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would
like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on.
She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she
came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and
didn't invite her in.
Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's,
roughly, a few miles?
Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles.
Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles?
Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about
8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.
Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that
time?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda
said, she looked upset at that time.
Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was
in the house?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask?
Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something
that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right
after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was
first.
Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that?
Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I.
We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed
a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her
husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would
relay that information to her.
So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any
representation. She didn't want any more----
Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.
Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. Was it in December or January?
Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe.
Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation
for Lee.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could
understand.
Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine,
visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American
Civil Liberties Union business.
Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather
closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we
received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see
Marina Oswald.
Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?
Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which
you have there. Do you have that?
Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of
which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce
it at an appropriate time.
Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called,
what was his name?
Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it.
Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name
Olds?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see
Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented,
that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth.
John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina
Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being
observed.
Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to
see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would
talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't
remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina
changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't
want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote
a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John
Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to
the FBI.
Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this
time?
Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also
that she was being held incognito and not able to----
Mr. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado?
Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado.
Representative FORD. Press releases by whom?
Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to
her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.
Representative FORD. In Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it
and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that
seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see
her.
Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her
own volition?
Mr. MARTIN. Her own.
Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?
Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.
Mr. DULLES. In two pages?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was
quoted, in the Worker.
Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible,
a copy of the original of that letter.
Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.
Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that.
That was dated sometime in the middle of January?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter
up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it
back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would
quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think,
that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that
letter, the English copy of which you have.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or
4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union
letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of
clarity in the record.
Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather.
(Short recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing
up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?
Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask
your questions prior to your leaving.
Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an
exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?
Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter
which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil
Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin,
Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau
of Investigation.
I ask that it be introduced in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No.
Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced.
(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because
just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford
indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification?
It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a
copy of this letter in Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in
Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. At about the same time?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day.
Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the
wastepaper basket?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you
not say?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.
Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper
basket?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?
Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes.
Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich
indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American
Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get.
Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get
both a copy of the letter and their answer.
Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the
Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be
adequate, wouldn't it?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.
Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.
Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere,
that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee
was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at
all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier,
and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of
December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of
December.
Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her
attitude?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.
Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the
question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?
Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty.
Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did she indicate why?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.
Representative FORD. At that point had she----
Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling.
Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the
evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal
Government?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI
were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of
the questioning at all.
Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as
you know at that period?
Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes.
Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her
about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never
changed her mind?
Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he
was guilty.
Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation
she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he
was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?
Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told
her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes.
Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her?
Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes.
Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you
about the conversation?
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.
Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation
that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police
station?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you
have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people
have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent
pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She
had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with
that?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be
recognized when she went out.
Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.
Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she
wore?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better.
Representative FORD. Did she like it?
Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't
stand makeup.
Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people
that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have
indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent
to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in
your home.
Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have
asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was
living at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the
Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.
Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other
than in an official capacity?
(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in
Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran
into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.
Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about
who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?
Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I
mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is
Teofil, the last name is Meller.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and
had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to
talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave
the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.
(Discussion off the record.)
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved.
Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to
see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while
she was living at your home?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he
stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd
situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's
desire to go to Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he
wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the
United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to
Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was
making to get to and live in Cuba?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which
Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23
and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge
about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he
was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?
Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that.
Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald
concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning
any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the
custody of the Dallas police?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite
Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between
she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was
talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had
any direct conversation with her at all.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an
incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown
to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.
Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the
only place I heard it.
Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself.
Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her
mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of
the United States Government?
Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came
to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down
to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when
they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and
Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the
only reference she has made to anything like that.
Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of
Marguerite Oswald in that respect?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or
in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs.
Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of
November 21 and the morning of November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us?
Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.
Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us
now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in
any publication.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. All right.
Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was
telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from
the Inn to my home.
Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean----
Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon
Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that
he had come home Thursday night and that----
Mr. DULLES. In Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.
Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place.
Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and
she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I
think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on
the dresser, which was strange.
Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have
heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.
Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard
to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald
prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is
about the extent of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to
be inaccurate?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think
everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her
television appearance in January on CBS television?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now
believe to be inaccurate in any respect?
Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions,
and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were
impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked
her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she
answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those
answers were accurate?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as
being----
Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through
this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative
prepared by or for Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles?
Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this
morning and this afternoon.
Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life
magazine?
Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time
magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.
Mr. REDLICH. When was that?
Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington.
Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her
testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday,
February 6.
Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference
on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.
Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony
is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview?
Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night
because Secret Service was still with her.
Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview?
Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the
Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her
around the restaurant.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be
inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it
definite, make a definite statement on it.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the
course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on
the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time,
do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony
which she presented before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that
under oath she would tell the truth.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?
Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract
with her.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises
questions as to whether you are still her business representative?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that?
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was
discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business
negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before
this Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her
testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.
Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of----
The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia
and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever
his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his
business and not ours.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship
with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given.
Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any
information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to
your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President
Kennedy.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in
the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months
before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the
hotel.
Mr. DULLES. What year was this?
Mr. MARTIN. About 1955.
Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area.
Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager
in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a
bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding
acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me
by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have
been in his place twice.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?
Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New
Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of
the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.
Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all
right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a
half.
The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I
had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The
club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before
opening hours.
Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's
business establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?
Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially?
Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little
gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood
about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball
bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came
out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six
Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went
over there or not, I don't know.
Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid
of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.
Would you tell the Commission about that?
Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us----
Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?
Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin
gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina
which we didn't think was necessary.
They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were
of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was
involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper
about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who
else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.
Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d.
Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after.
Mr. DULLES. After November 22?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the
paper that----
Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.
Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the
newspaper announcement.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to
kill him which was after the assassination?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try
to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told
them that there was just one person involved.
Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There
was no one with him.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other
than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you
have forwarded to this Commission.
As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be
here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief
session at which time your testimony would be completed.
Mr. MARTIN. All right.
Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of
Mr. Martin at this time?
The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions?
Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake.
(Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I
don't think I have any further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to
ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?
Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Evening Session
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.
Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order.
Will you continue with the testimony?
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby,
and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you
have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to
his business establishment?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do
you have any other information about him and his activities which you
would like to present before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he
is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.
Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that
type of thing.
Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very
friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see
him anywhere.
Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that.
Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time.
Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and
a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen
this?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded
the----
Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know
if you are familiar with it.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No.
332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted.
(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked
Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in
evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and
ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice
arose?
Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov,
and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.
Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape?
Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.
Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted?
Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English?
Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to
the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this
translation?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story,
is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that
story?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English
translation of that Russian story?
Mr. MARTIN. That is true.
Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the
original?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and
then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.
Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to
translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.
Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?
Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure.
Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. That is right.
Mr. MARTIN. It might be.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that
long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company,
and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe,
teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of
her Russian.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit
No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you
have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course
of this questioning. I would appreciate it.
Mr. LEECH. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.
Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and
then I will ask you about individual items.
Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and
verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.
Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325
is a contract with Texitalia Films.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that
contract?
Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor
documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and
the TV rights.
Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be
paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal
appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such
a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal
appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive
$1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.
Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on
February 11, 1964?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. LEECH. By her?
Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her.
Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.
Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life
magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?
Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights
on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily
for their use on a cover issue.
Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess,
it was 2 weeks ago.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a
copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in
view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a
photograph which you never possessed?
Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a
common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film
is to purchase the rights from Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the
photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications
concerning that photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror
for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same
photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they
sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only.
However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to
the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily
Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the
London Daily Mail for $500.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained
this photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the
attorney for the Detroit Free Press.
Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him?
Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit.
Mr. REDLICH. By phone?
Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public
property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where
he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did,
through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I
can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S".
Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it
from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied
saying anything of the sort to Murray.
However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured
it was public domain.
Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned
the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something
that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I
commented on that assertion.
Would you tell the Commission what we said?
Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and
that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with
regard to this photograph?
Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the
news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't
say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his
home telephone number.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference
to Stern Magazine.
Would you tell the Commission about that, please?
Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle
of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they
wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use
in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two
countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and
pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European
countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they
made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the
date?
Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.
Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced----
Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet.
Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into
the record, just this summary.
Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date.
Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.
Mr. LEECH. When?
Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to
Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650.
Could you comment on that?
Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not
send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs
for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later.
However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.
Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what?
Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.
Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the
Dallas police?
Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by
the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.
Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which
were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either
in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the
Dallas police?
Is that right?
Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have
been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to
you by some law enforcement authority?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down
payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was
stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written
by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any
contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that
I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently
they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still
attached to the letter that was sent with it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to?
Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me.
Mr. DULLES. To you as agent?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me.
Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important.
Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it.
Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made
payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to
Marina.
Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to
Meredith Press.
Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main
office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great
length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world
book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would
pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10
percent commission of the retail price of the book.
On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the
third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission.
Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance.
Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this
book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing
to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don
Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for
this type of book because of the Russian attachment.
Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over
the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements
that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's
story?
Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean?
Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the
publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you
were negotiating at the time?
Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it.
For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that
they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in
Marina's story that the Commission did not know.
Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this?
Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess.
Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.
Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would
buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would
not be known to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and
we closed negotiations.
Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina
Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post.
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material
which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.
Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony
here that she had not related this information to the Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the
Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary
negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?
Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days
before she testified.
Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on
Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the
information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for
why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the
first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had
mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.
Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after
having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon
incident with Marina Oswald in any way?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time.
Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from
Washington.
Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel
the Commission should know about it.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the
Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne.
Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say?
Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had
not mentioned it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention
it?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to
Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly
after you learned about it in January.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald
after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. You had not?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the
Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I
don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.
Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item
under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that
this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your
testimony tonight?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle
photo that you have not already told us?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle
photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.
Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of
that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken
that way.
Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in
relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident
or the Richard Nixon incident?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or
not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I
know that or whether I have read it.
Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.
Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house
was located?
To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two
places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are
they both in Oak Cliff?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely
Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth.
It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I
think, that was similar to a duplex.
Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which
was the subject of these negotiations was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick
residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the
Neely Street address is a white building.
I believe the photo shows a white building.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was
taken at which address?
Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address.
Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating
with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you
when and where it was taken?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak
Cliff. I didn't say where or when.
Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you.
Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or
when.
Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee
Oswald had in his hand?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the
Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one.
Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which
one it was?
Mr. MARTIN. Correct.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two.
Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant.
Mr. DULLES. It is?
Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this
photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place,
anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this
Commission about which you have knowledge?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week
magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of
this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week
magazine.
Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press
conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she
made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we
passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she
would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone
in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a
short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is.
Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got
written?
Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written.
Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church?
Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over,
we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and
we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left
Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were
still here.
Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article
specifically supposed to be?
Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it
would be an article written on Marina going to church.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission
Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any
future royalties, is that correct?
Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which
would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements?
Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending
on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights,
Asiatic serial rights would bring.
Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000?
Mr. MARTIN. I think so.
Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts?
Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these.
Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements
that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things.
We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as
this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by
the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we
have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian
newspaper----
Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think?
Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to
have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also
the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of
course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission
that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately
$500,000. Would you comment on that estimate?
Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take
into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions
alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000
right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high.
Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat
of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to
be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It
starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of
Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this
is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this
morning.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so.
Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to?
Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet?
Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this
Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to
be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian
letter?
Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the
20th. I am unable to tell what month it is.
Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then
appear under the date.
Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it.
Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Any objection?
Mr. LEECH. No objection.
Mr. DULLES. It is admitted.
(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were
marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in
evidence.)
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize
the contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately,
just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied
to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee
Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate?
Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct.
Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall to whom that letter was written?
Mr. MARTIN. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli.
Mr. REDLICH. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Marina. I advised her against----
Mr. REDLICH. Melvin Belli?
Mr. MARTIN. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against
such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in
translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a
manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she
send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case.
Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know.
I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the
translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford.
Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been
sent to anyone?
Mr. MARTIN. No sir, it hasn't.
Mr. DULLES. You say it has not been?
Mr. MARTIN. It has not been.
Mr. DULLES. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not
been?
Mr. MARTIN. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it
would be a different letter.
Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's
handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that
this letter is in her handwriting?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter.
Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed
this letter when she appeared before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. I believe you mentioned it sometime today.
Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you know why it has not been sent?
Mr. MARTIN. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she
actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually
a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information
concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or
the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like
to present before this Commission at this time?
Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think so. Nothing.
Mr. REDLICH. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for
you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission,
would you be willing to do so?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness,
unless Mr. Rankin does or you do.
Mr. DULLES. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am
just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some
personal paper with a tree on it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I bought that.
Mr. DULLES. You bought it for her?
Mr. MARTIN. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington.
Mr. DULLES. Is this another draft or is this just a copy?
Mr. MARTIN. This is the original of the copy.
Mr. REDLICH. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No.
333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that
at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the
record a copy of the letter which you received requesting certain
notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have
you made available to the Commission all of the material which was
requested in that letter?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and
could find nothing else.
Mr. REDLICH. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently
failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for
examination and we will return it to you.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily."
Mr. DULLES. They are no longer daily.
Mr. MARTIN. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article
about Marina in it, and I will send that to you.
Mr. REDLICH. And you will send anything that you may come across which
you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. REDLICH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had
suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been
covered?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Those have been covered.
Mr. DULLES. All been covered?
Mr. REDLICH. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt
or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the
President?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What did she say?
Mr. MARTIN. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and
the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he
did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She
didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the
Russian-English Dictionary.
Mr. DULLES. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or
had an accomplice or accomplices?
Mr. MARTIN. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was
definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did
anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that
specifically in the case of the assassination of the President. But she
had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in
returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United
States?
Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the
United States. One time she said that she thought she would go back to
Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking.
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the
Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return?
Mr. MARTIN. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was
a letter to a friend in Russia.
Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that I think.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough
postage on.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage."
Mr. DULLES. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or
associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time
or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read
out to you?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than
those that have been discussed in this testimony?
Mr. MARTIN. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I
can't think of anyone else.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions
at this time?
Mr. LEECH. Not a word.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing
voluntarily.
Mr. DULLES. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our
questions.
Mr. MARTIN. Anything I can do.
Mr. DULLES. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as
sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel
will bring it to our attention.
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I certainly will.
Mr. REDLICH. May I before we adjourn ask another question?
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the
question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald
was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe
I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and
didn't enter into any discussions with her at all.
Mr. REDLICH. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of
the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark
Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the
National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe
he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent,
and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 percent of those points
they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken
from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the
assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other.
Mr. REDLICH. Did Robert Oswald comment on this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. For the record I believe the publication you are referring
to is the National Guardian.
Mr. MARTIN. The National Guardian, yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Is that your recollection now?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, National Guardian.
Mr. REDLICH. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this?
Mr. MARTIN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. We have no further questions.
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call.
(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Wednesday, March 4, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE
The President's Commission met at 2:30 p.m., on March 4, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, assistants to
Walter E. Craig.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
The Commission has been informed that Mr. Lane has collected numerous
materials relevant to the Commission's work.
The Commission proposes to question Mr. Lane on all matters of which
he has knowledge concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and
the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to request of Mr. Lane
that he make available to the Commission any documentary material in
his possession which can assist the Commission in its work.
In accordance with the rules of this Commission, Mr. Lane has been
furnished with a copy of this statement.
Mr. Lane, would please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LANE. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.
Mr. Rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you state your name?
Mr. LANE. My name is Mark Lane.
Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?
Mr. LANE. 164 West 79th Street, New York City, New York State.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you a practicing lawyer?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I am.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you state your age, please?
Mr. LANE. I am 37 years old.
Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been practicing law?
Mr. LANE. Thirteen years.
Mr. RANKIN. You have qualified in the State of New York?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you qualified in any other Jurisdiction?
Mr. LANE. Just in the Federal court.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have some information concerning the matters being
investigated by the Commission that you would like to present to the
Commission?
Mr. LANE. Yes; I do.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed to do so?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
I wonder if I might ask at the outset if I will be able to secure a
copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be
rushing things?
The CHAIRMAN. You will be able to obtain it. I don't know whether we
can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. But we will do it just
as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter.
Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.
At the outset, I would like to request that this portion of the
hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. I think that there are
matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and
that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions
to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the
press.
Accordingly, I request that this session at least involving my
testimony be so opened to the public.
The CHAIRMAN. You would have a right, as any witness would have, to
request that, Mr. Lane. We will conduct this in an open hearing. We
will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will
conduct the hearing there. It will be open to the public. I saw a good
many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair.
(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Commission recessed and then reconvened
in the auditorium in open session.)
TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE RESUMED IN OPEN SESSION
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
The Commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor.
A reporter has been appointed.
Mr. Lane has been sworn.
Mr. Lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a
public hearing. I explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable
to the Commission. The Commission does not operate in a secret way. Any
witness who desires to have his--give his testimony in public may do so.
We have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of
witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. But any witness who
desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so.
The purpose of this Commission is, of course, eventually to make known
to the President, and to the American public everything that has
transpired before this Commission. All of it will be made available at
the appropriate time. The records of the work of the Commission will be
preserved for the public. So, Mr. Lane, we will be happy to accommodate
you, and to proceed with our hearing.
Now, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.
(Having been previously duly sworn.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you proceed to tell the Commission whatever
you have that would bear upon this investigation? Start item by item,
and give us whatever you have in support.
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.
At the outset, I would like to call to the Commission's attention a
matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the Commission
determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, I
will understand that. But I would like to call it to your attention,
because although it is peripheral I think it is related to both the
assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the
President.
That is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized,
probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing
Lee Harvey Oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described
in at least one publication, Life magazine, as the weapon with which he
assassinated President Kennedy.
I would like to indicate to the Commission at this time that the
pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included
doctored and forged photographs. I would like to present evidence to
the Commission at this time in that regard.
I ask the Commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been
doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime
has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to
the Commission members, though not directly through the press, from
magazines, which evidence----
The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last sentence--something about the
Commission?
Mr. LANE. I am asking the Commission if it does conclude that the
pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by
which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not
an effort has been made to influence the members of the Commission,
while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which
certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that anything you present in
that regard will be thoroughly considered by the Commission.
Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.
I would like to offer the February 21, 1964 issue of Life magazine.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter, please, the next number.
Mr. LANE. A picture appears on the entire cover of Life magazine, and
an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page 80. The
caption on the cover reads, "Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to
kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit."
I think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that
there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand
of Lee Harvey Oswald, a telescopic sight.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, we will mark that Exhibit No. 334.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 334, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. Next I would like to offer a picture which is a glossy
8-1/2-by-11 picture, of a photograph published in the New York Times,
secured by the New York Times from the Associated Press.
Representative FORD. Is there any verification of the fact that that is
as you have identified it?
Mr. LANE. That is what--a picture secured----
Representative FORD. From the New York Times, which in turn had
acquired it from the Associated Press?
Mr. LANE. Well, that is a statement which I have made under oath, and
it can be verified with the New York Times.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 335 that you are just referring to, Mr.
Lane.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 335, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. I suggest that is the identical picture with the one
published on the cover of Life magazine, Exhibit 334, in every respect,
including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the
exception of the rifle in the hands of Oswald, which appears to have no
telescopic scope in Exhibit 335.
In addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the
photograph around the head of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the trees and
other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from
the Associated Press picture, but are present in the Life magazine
picture.
Shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of Lee
Harvey Oswald in Exhibit 335 have been removed in the Life magazine
picture. I would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit.
Mr. RANKIN. That will be marked Exhibit 336.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 336 for
identification.)
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what that is, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. Yes; 336 is an 8-1/2-by-11 glossy photograph of a picture
appearing in Newsweek magazine, March 2, 1964, credited by Newsweek
magazine to the Detroit Free Press. I would suggest that that is an
identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except
that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal
of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the
other two pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you say metallics?
Mr. LANE. Metallics.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you mean by that, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. Yes. Just below the hand, the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald,
there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of
the rifle, which are in no way clear--which are in no way present in
the other pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. LANE. To make that clearer, I would like to offer Exhibit 337,
which is an enlargement of the picture 335, the New York Times picture.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 337, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. This enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is
allegedly Oswald's left hand. It clearly shows an absolute absence of
all of the metallic material present in the Newsweek photo, 336.
This is a front page of the New York Journal American dated February
18, 1964, which is an identical picture with the one published in
Life magazine, Exhibit 334, and the credit lines appearing on that
publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the
Associated Press through the Detroit Free Press.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 338, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. That picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture
in terms of the metal material on the rifle which Newsweek stated they
secured through the Detroit Free Press, and is not the picture without
the telescopic sight which the New York Times states that it secured
through the Associated Press. In any event, I would like to submit a
picture procured from Worldwide Photos.
Mr. RANKIN. 339.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 339, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. This is allegedly a picture taken in the Dallas Police
Station, showing the alleged murder weapon.
The CHAIRMAN. That is No. 339, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir, and I would call the Commission's attention to the
curved line of the stock present in Exhibit 339, and obviously absent
from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle
allegedly in the hands of Lee Oswald, in Exhibits 334 through 338
comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the Dallas police
station.
And should the Commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored
pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, I would
refer the Commission investigators to the Times Picayune of New
Orleans, published on November 24, 1963, in which an Associated Press
story indicated that the Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry, stated that
he had in his possession photographs found in the home of Lee Harvey
Oswald's Russian-born wife which linked Oswald with the rifle used
in the assassination of President Kennedy. Curry said in the article
attributed to Curry----
Mr. RANKIN. Do you wish to make that a part of the record?
Mr. LANE. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. That will be Exhibit 340.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 340 for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. The article attributes a statement to Curry indicating that
he, the Dallas Police Chief, found the pictures in the suburban Irving,
Tex., home in which Marina Oswald lived, and stated that Mr. Curry had
said that the pictures will be used in evidence in Oswald's murder
trial. This was published, I assume, prior to the time that Oswald was
himself killed on that day.
Representative FORD. Would the date of the paper be on the back side?
The CHAIRMAN. It is on the front. November 24th.
Mr. LANE. I would like to offer this as an exhibit.
Mr. RANKIN. This is marked Commission Exhibit 341.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 341, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. Exhibit 341 is a page or portion of a page of the New York
Times, on Sunday, December 8, with a picture of the alleged murder
weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from
the United Press International, indicating clearly that that rifle is
not the rifle allegedly being held by Mr. Oswald in any of the pictures
so widely circulated throughout our country.
Mr. RANKIN. On what do you base that last conclusion, Mr. Lane? Would
you point out to the Commission the differences as you see them?
Mr. LANE. Yes; the reference of the stock. The stock has a clearly
curved and bent line in this picture.
Mr. RANKIN. That is in Exhibit 341?
Mr. LANE. Yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of Oswald
holding the rifle; 336, for example, in Newsweek magazine shows almost
a straight stock. Some of them show even an absolutely straight stock.
Exhibit 335 from the New York Times shows a perfectly straight
stock--which is not only a stock unlike this particular Italian 6.5
millimeter carbine, but is a stock I believe unlike any rifle stock
produced during the 20th century, and possibly the 19th century,
anywhere. Rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in
it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the
rifle while your finger holds the trigger. And there is no break in
the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored
photographs.
I have checked many rifle catalogs. This is not my field, and I don't
qualify as an expert. But I have checked many rifle catalogs, and have
only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for
one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given,
that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any
period later than you have described do?
Mr. LANE. Well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle
experts have made that statement to me.
Mr. RANKIN. Who are those?
Mr. LANE. I believe I have some of their names here. I don't have the
names of those who have called, but I can secure that at our first
break by a telephone call to my office.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you furnish that then?
Mr. LANE. Surely. In any event, whether there was another rifle or
not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly--in the picture in
which Oswald is allegedly holding the rifle--clearly is not the rifle
allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. I wonder if I might ask the
Commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare
the actual rifle with the pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. We will do that in due course. But we don't have the
rifle here now, Mr. Lane. We will make the proper comparisons, you may
be sure, with experts.
Mr. LANE. Now, on another peripheral matter--unless there are any
further questions in relation to this matter----
Mr. RANKIN. No, you may proceed. Do you have negatives of these
pictures you have produced?
Mr. LANE. No. I am glad you asked that question, because I can now
relate to you about a conversation that I had 2 or 3 days ago with
a Mr. Dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the Associated Press. I
called Mr. Dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the
Associated Press sent out over the wire service.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify Mr. Dirksen a little more clearly?
Mr. LANE. He just told me he was employed. I called the Associated
Press in New York City and asked for the photo desk, Mr. Dirksen
answered and said he was employed there. I asked him what his specific
position was there, and he declined to give me that information. He
said he didn't think it was relevant.
In any event, I asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy
copy of the picture sent by the Associated Press over the wires. And
I described the picture as the one of Oswald allegedly holding the
murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol,
allegedly the pistol with which he slew Officer Tippit.
Mr. Dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that
picture available to me and I pointed out to him that in the past the
Associated Press had been most cooperative when I asked for pictures,
and he said, "Yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't
we?" I said, "Yes, you did, I appreciated that. I wonder why this
picture is being treated differently from other pictures." He said,
"This is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation."
I asked him what he meant by that. He explained that there was a
special contract--he did not have all the details, he said, because
he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the
contract--but there was a special contract between the Associated Press
and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the Associated Press
agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available
to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their
subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture.
I said if that was the understanding, I certainly would not wish to
have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make
the name of the source known to me, so that I might go directly to the
source and see if I might secure the picture in that fashion. He stated
he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the
contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of
the picture.
I discussed this with an employee of the New York Times thereafter,
since I knew that the New York Times was a subscriber to the services
made available by the Associated Press.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify that employee, please?
Mr. LANE. No, I am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously,
here, I am sorry.
But this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been
made by the New York Times to the Associated Press along the same lines
as the inquiry which I had made, in terms of trying to determine the
source of the Associated Press picture. And I was informed by this
employee of the New York Times that the Associated Press declined to
name the source of the picture, even when the New York Times made a
request. Therefore, I do not have the negative, and I do not know the
source of the picture.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you
produced?
Mr. LANE. My office called Life magazine, and asked someone at Life
magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture
could be made available and they stated that they would not make a
glossy available--it was their policy in reference to all pictures in
their possession.
Those are the only inquiries I made with reference to the source of the
pictures.
Mr. RANKIN. Now you may proceed.
Mr. LANE. Yes. I would like to raise one other peripheral matter before
going into the evidence, if I might. That is, I would like to call to
the attention of the Commission this article, and ask that it be marked
as an exhibit.
Mr. RANKIN. That has been marked Commission Exhibit 342.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 342, for
identification.)
Mr. LANE. Thank you.
This is an article appearing in the New York Journal American Sunday,
February 23.
Mr. RANKIN. This consists of two separate pages, does it not?
Mr. LANE. It does--the first page being a masthead and front page,
headline from the Journal American, dated Sunday, February 23, 1964,
and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the
Journal American on that date, and a portion of page 15, the continued
story of the Journal American on the same date.
This is an article written by Bob Considine, who enjoys a reputation
for being an excellent reporter. Mr. Considine states in his article
that an eyewitness to the shooting of Officer Tippit by the name of
Warren Reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man
with a rifle.
Now, I don't believe that it is alleged that Reynolds actually saw the
person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at Officer Tippit. As
I understand it, Mr. Reynolds has stated that he, Reynolds, heard the
shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing
new shells into a pistol as he ran away. And Mr. Considine indicates
that Reynolds thereafter identified Oswald as the person who was
running from the scene.
This article indicated that during January, Mr. Reynolds was himself
shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital--I
believe he was in the hospital at that time. I don't know what the
state of his health is at the present time.
Mr. Considine indicates that a person was picked up in the Dallas area
and charged with the shooting, but that someone who Mr. Considine
refers to as "his girl"--I assume he is making reference to the
gentleman who was charged with the attack upon Reynolds--testified
in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person
charged with the crime was released.
This person, Betty Mooney MacDonald, who helped to free her friend,
according to Mr. Considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the
Carousel Club in Dallas, owned by Jack Ruby.
Two weeks before this article was written, Miss MacDonald was herself
arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article
was written, Mr. Considine states she hanged herself in her cell.
I would request the Commission to investigate into these series of most
unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic
matter pending before the Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced as are all of these pictures,
admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 334 to 342, were received in evidence.)
Mr. LANE. In the course of my investigation, I have come across some
material which would be relevant only if I was first able to examine
the rifle, quite frankly. I wonder if that might be able to be
accomplished sometime during the day?
The CHAIRMAN. During the day?
Mr. LANE. Today, if possible.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think not, because we don't have it. But we will
make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, Mr.
Lane.
Mr. LANE. Fine. Then I will reserve my comment in reference to the
rifle for that occasion.
The CHAIRMAN. You may.
Mr. LANE. Thank you. I would like to, on behalf of Lee Harvey Oswald,
make this information available to the Commission.
It, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of Dallas, and
by the district attorney of Dallas that Oswald was present on the
sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Building during the very
early afternoon of November 22, 1963, and that from that area he fired
an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, three times, twice striking the
President of the United States, wounding him fatally, and injuring the
Governor of Texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion.
The physician who signed the death certificate of the President
pronouncing him dead was Dr. Kemp Clark, whose name appeared on the
official homicide report filed by the Dallas Police Department, and
attested to by two police officers.
On the 27th of November, the New York Times reported, "Dr. Kemp Clark,
who pronounced Mr. Kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about
the necktie knot, 'It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit'
the surgeon said."
On the same day the New York Herald Tribune stated, "On the basis of
accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot
fired as the Presidential car was approaching, struck the President in
the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into
his body."
According to Richard Dudman--Mr. Dudman is the Washington
correspondent, as I am sure you all know better than I, for the St.
Louis Post-Dispatch--according to him, the surgeons who attended the
President while he was at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, described
the wound--were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat
as an entrance wound. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch on December 1
carried a rather long and involved story by Mr. Dudman, recounting his
conversations with the physicians who were treating the President on
the 22d at the Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Dr. Perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the
President's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he
explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in
the President's throat--since that was in the correct place for the
operation, in any event. Dr. Perry, according to Mr. Dudman, described
to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound.
Dr. Robert N. McClelland, who was one of the three physicians who
participated in that operation, later stated to Mr. Dudman, "It
certainly did look like an entrance wound."
He went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in Dallas,
sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an
entrance wound.
One doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound.
The doctor said, "He is bubbling air." Two of the doctors, Drs.
Peters and Baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the
President's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and
to keep them from collapsing.
Dr. Jones and Dr. Perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of
the President's chest.
The activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first
clue that they had that the President's lung had been punctured.
The prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be
evidence that the President had been shot from the front, in the
throat----
The CHAIRMAN. Are you reading now, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. No, I am just making reference to this. That is not a quote.
The CHAIRMAN. It is not a quote. You are just paraphrasing what was in
this article of Mr. Dudman's?
Mr. LANE. No, I am leaving Mr. Dudman now, and going on to statements
made by the prosecuting authorities. I will submit quotations--I will
try to remember to place quotation marks when I have a quotation.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.
Mr. LANE. The authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be
irrefutable evidence that the President had been shot in the front of
the throat, concluded that the Presidential limousine was approaching
the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired, because
it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting
authorities that Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository
Building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone.
I think that the record and an examination of the activities of the
Dallas police, and the Dallas district attorney's office, will show
that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was
once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they
were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence
and new facts.
For example, the New York Times stated on November 26, 1963, "The known
facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested
that he started shooting as the President's car was coming toward him,
swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180°, and fired at least twice
more." At that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in
terms of the theory that Oswald was the assassin and that Oswald acted
alone.
There were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country
showing the Textbook Depository Building on Houston Street where the
Presidential limousine approached the Book Depository Building, and Elm
Street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued
until it reached the underpass directly ahead.
And in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing
the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was
fired while the Presidential car was still on Houston Street, still
approaching the Book Depository Building.
However, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that
theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including Governor Connally,
and Mrs. Connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left
turn, had passed the Book Depository Building at the time that the
first shot was fired.
In essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that Oswald,
while acting alone, shot the President from the front from the back.
However,----
Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand that.
Mr. LANE. I don't understand that either, but this was the theory of
the prosecution--that the President had--it had been conceded at that
time that the President had been shot in the front of the throat.
However, the evidence then developed indicated that the Presidential
limousine had already passed the Book Depository Building, and the
President was not facing the Book Depository Building when the first
shot was fired. At that time, Life magazine explains it all in a
full page article entitled, "An End to Nagging Rumors, the 6 Crucial
Seconds."
And Life conceded that the limousine was some 50 yards past Oswald when
the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the President's
throat from the front, but explained that the President had turned
completely around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the
shot was fired.
But that theory, however, could not----
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of that article?
Mr. LANE. That was December 6, Life magazine. The full page article was
entitled "End to Nagging Rumors, the Six Critical Seconds."
The problem----
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there--just to clarify? Did you
say that in this article that Life said that the late President had
turned around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot
was fired?
Mr. LANE. Yes, Senator. The trouble with that theory, however, which
was enunciated by Life, and from where they secured it I do not
know, but they certainly were in Dallas very much in evidence on the
scene--was that the week prior to then Life magazine itself printed
the stills of the motion pictures, and in those stills, with Life's
own captions, it was quite plain that the President was looking almost
completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and
certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. And so the
stills printed in Life's own publication a week before they enunciated
this theory proved that the Life theory was false.
In addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as
Mrs. Connally and the Governor of Texas, indicated that the President
was looking almost straight ahead. And I believe that Mrs. Connally
stated that she had just made a statement to the President, tragically
enough, something about, "You cannot say the people of Dallas have not
given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the
first bullet struck him.
In order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light
of the new evidence that Oswald was the assassin and he acted alone,
something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try
would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony.
Mr. Dudman stated that the doctors at Parkland Hospital, who had, of
course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the
vital evidence by the FBI or by the Secret Service, and that it was not
until after an autopsy had been performed at Bethesda, that two Secret
Service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the Parkland
Hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to
them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were
all in error at the outset. And, eventually, that was the position
agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they
stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat.
Physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as
a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to
examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds.
In addition to this, according to Mr. Dudman in the Post Dispatch
there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then
was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in
the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine
if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been
completed.
However, I do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report--very
likely you have seen that report--but portions of it, whether
accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through
the press. And the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the
public through the press, in reference to the wound in the President's
throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the President's
head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from
the President's head exited at the throat.
If this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the
throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent
to the doctors in the Parkland Hospital, particularly in view of the
fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the
top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the
back of the chest, a very different path entirely.
And since Dr. Perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the
President's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to
understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was
absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in
when he inserted the tube.
Most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top
of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the
throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat
are both indications of a punctured lung--it would be difficult to
explain by that particular bullet's path.
I think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would
have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available
at the outset, that the President was shot from the front while
facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository
building--an openminded investigating body in Dallas, the district
attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that
investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that
Oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and might have been
led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well--clearly
something that they did not do.
I have been informed by reporters, for example, that--reporters from
foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very
concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave
Dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be
roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped
or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him,
or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily
leaving the entire area.
I am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such
roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave,
and that the prosecution continued with its theory that Oswald was the
assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and
there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively
as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and
the radio media for that purpose.
And while I am on this question, I wonder if I might ask the Commission
to give consideration to--although I don't believe that it is
present in any of the six panels which have been established by the
Commission--but to give consideration nevertheless to the 48 hours
in which Oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his
rights as an American citizen, charged with a crime in this country.
The statement by the National Board of the American Civil Liberties
Union, that had Oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial
anywhere in this country.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that that will be given most
serious consideration by the Commission, and the Commission has already
appointed as an act in that direction the President of the American
Bar Association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an
investigation of that very thing. I assure you it will be done by the
Commission.
Mr. LANE. Getting back to the evidence, Mr. Chief Justice, the
spectator closest to President Kennedy, a Mrs. Hill, who was a
substitute teacher in the Dallas public school system, stated to me
that she was in her view the closest spectator to the President, and
was standing alongside a Mary Moorman, who resides in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of this interview, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. It was within the last week. She stated to me that she was
the closest spectator to the President, she and her friend, when the
President was struck by a bullet. She said that she heard some four to
six shots fired.
Now, she was standing on the grass across the--across Elm Street,
across from the Texas Book Depository Building. She said that in
her--it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots,
came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that
time directly in front and slightly to the right of the Presidential
limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the
Book Depository Building which was directly across the street from her,
and which was to the rear of the Presidential limousine.
She said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run
from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll,
and that he ran on to the triple overpass.
She told me that standing alongside of her was Mary Moorman, who took
a picture of the President just a brief moment before the first shot
was fired, and that agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation took
the film from Miss Moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has
in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture,
and that it is possible that the picture included the entire Book
Depository Building, taken just precisely a second or less before the
shots were fired.
Tom Wicker, who is a member of the New York Times White House staff,
who was the only New York Times reporter in Dallas when the President
was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the Saturday Review,
on January 11, 1964, "As we came out of the overpass, I saw a
motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few
feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank."
Ronnie Dugger, who is the editor of the Texas Observer, a statewide
publication in Texas, stated in his publication on November 29, 1963,
and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same
nature.
I am now quoting from the publication:
"On the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was
roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks,
across the overpass. He brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it
and was running up the base of the trestle when I lost sight of him."
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the date of the paper that came from?
Mr. LANE. Yes. That was the Texas Observer, November 29, 1963. That
statement has been confirmed by Mr. Dugger to me in two interviews in
Dallas.
James Vachule, who is a reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram,
said, "I heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass."
And Jerry Flemmons, reporting also for the Fort Worth Star Telegram,
on November 22, 1963, stated, "Kennedy was gunned down by an assassin,
apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway."
Now, I spoke to a Mary Woodward, who is an employee of the Dallas
Morning News, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers,
all employees of the Dallas Morning News, and they were standing near
the--the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps 50 feet or so from the
overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository
building to their left. And on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning
News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken
with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the
entire portion which I will quote from now--in her conversation with me.
That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President
to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she
explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers
and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there
was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the
right."
Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning
News, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on
behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came
from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not
at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left.
Miss Woodward continued, "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came
to a halt. Things are a little bit hazy from this point, but I don't
believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs.
Kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the
noise was really coming from a gun. Then after a moment's pause there
was another shot, and I saw the President slumping in the car."
This would seem to be consistent with the statement by Miss Hill that
more than three shots were fired.
In addition to these statements, James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas
motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on November
24, 1963, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he
was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about
15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "I thought it was
a backfire", he said.
Now, Miss Hill told me that when she was questioned--put that word
unfortunately in quotation marks--by the U.S. Secret Service agents,
that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is
that she only heard three shots. And she insisted that she heard from
four to six shots. And she said that at least one agent of the Secret
Service said to her, "There were three wounds and there were three
shells, so we are only saying three shots." And they raised with her
the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she
might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard
echoes.
Despite this type of questioning by the Secret Service, Miss Hill
continued to maintain, the last I spoke with her, about a week ago,
that she heard from four to six shots.
Now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been
very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of
funds, and, therefore, is clearly not the kind of investigation which
is required here--but from this limited investigation, it seems that
only two persons immediately charged into the Texas Book Depository
Building after the shots were fired. They were an officer of the Dallas
Police Force, Seymour Weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the
Dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle
on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building.
There was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was
Roy S. Truly, who was and is, I believe, the director of the Book
Depository Building.
However, Mr. Truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the
direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. And although he
was standing directly in front of the Book Depository Building, he did
not believe that the shots came from that building.
Standing with him at the time of the assassination was O. V. Campbell,
who was the vice president of the Book Depository Building.
In the Dallas Morning News on November 23, 1963, it was stated that
"Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building
where he thought the sniper had hidden."
So we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the Book
Depository Building, and they both thought that the shots came from the
grassy knoll near the overpass.
The police officer, Seymour Weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the
Dallas district attorney's office, he and Mr. Truly, as I indicated
a moment ago were the only two who charged into the Book Depository
Building when the shots were fired.
Weitzman indicated in his affidavit--I assume you have the original of
that affidavit--that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence
toward where we thought the shots came from."
He indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the
old Texas Building. I immediately ran to the Texas Building and started
looking inside."
So even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they
did not believe the shots came from the building.
Mr. Weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he
did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and
then Truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the
general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the
President's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of
which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and
the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer.
From published accounts, and from my investigation, I can only find one
person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was
the Chief of Police in Dallas, Jesse Curry, who said as soon as the
shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. From the Book
Depository Building.
Now, of course, there were many persons present there whom I have not
quoted, to whom I have no access.
Now, I spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the Fort Worth
Star Telegram, whose name is Thayer Waldo. Mr. Waldo was standing with
a police captain near the Dallas Trade Mart Building, which was the
building, public building, where the President was going to have spoken
that day. Mr. Waldo was awaiting his arrival, the President's arrival
there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the
captain over hurriedly to the police car. Mr. Waldo accompanied the
captain to the police car. And Mr. Waldo stated to me that he heard
the first bulletin which came over the Dallas police radio, and it was
"Bulletin. The President has been shot. It is feared that others in his
party have been wounded. The shots came from a triple overpass in front
of the Presidential automobile."
So even the police, despite the Chief of Police's later assertion that
he knew that the shots came from the Book Depository Building, behind
the Presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated
that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from
the front, not from the rear.
Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier,
the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped
momentarily after the first shot. That statement was consistent
with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the
automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the
statement of many other witnesses as well.
Mr. RANKIN. When was that statement made?
Mr. LANE. That statement appeared in the newspaper I made reference to
before, the Houston Chronicle, on November 24, 1963.
Mr. RANKIN. When you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you
tell us, Mr. Lane?
Mr. LANE. Yes, I certainly shall do that.
Now, I think one has to conjecture as to why the Secret Service agent
who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the
agent who was driving the Presidential limousine in Dallas, where
we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an American
President were going to be made that day, because of the previous
difficulties in Dallas, the attack upon our Ambassador to the United
Nations and the attack upon the then Senator Johnson, when he spoke in
Dallas in 1960--one would assume that the most qualified Secret Service
driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. It is
difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete
stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the
rear. The natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the
gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. However, if the driver were
under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could
understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper
or snipers.
In addition, however, Roy Kellerman, who was in the front right-hand
seat of the automobile, who I am told was in charge of the Secret
Service operation that day, the director of the Secret Service not
being present in Dallas on that occasion--according to the pictures
printed in Life magazine, Mr. Kellerman looked forward until the first
shot was fired. Then he turned back, and looked at the President. He
immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of
the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot
was fired.
One would certainly expect that Mr. Kellerman was and is a trained
observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has
received his training.
The pictures I make reference to are those in Life magazine which I
referred to a little earlier in the afternoon.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chief Justice?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead, Senator.
Senator COOPER. This last statement you made, about the Secret Service
agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the
President, and then turned forward--I didn't quite understand what you
deduced from that.
Mr. LANE. I assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots.
Senator COOPER. You mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead?
Mr. LANE. Well, when the President was shot, and was struck he then
turned around, which I would imagine would be an ordinary response when
somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot.
But immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned
completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the
remainder of the time that the shots were fired. It would seem to
indicate to me that it is possible that Mr. Kellerman felt that the
shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your statement on that the car stopped,
the President's limousine?
Mr. LANE. The statement made by various witnesses, including Mr.
Chaney, a motorcycle policeman, Miss Woodward, who was one of the
closest witnesses to the President at the time that he was shot, and
others. I think that is the--I haven't documented that beyond that,
because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone,
that the automobile came to--almost came to a complete halt after the
first shot--did not quite stop, but almost did. And, of course, you
have the films, I assume, of the assassination and know more about that
than I do, certainly.
Now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file--I assume that you
have it or copies of it--in the Dallas district attorney's office or
the police office in Dallas, an affidavit sworn to by Officer Weitzman,
in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor
of the Book Depository Building at, I believe, 1:22 p.m., on November
22, 1963.
Now, in this affidavit, Officer Weitzman swore that the murder
weapon--that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a
7.65 Mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with
reference to the color of the strap, et cetera.
Now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same
position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth
floor was a German Mauser, adding the nationality. A German Mauser is
nothing at all like an Italian carbine. I think almost any rifle expert
will indicate that that is so.
I have been informed that almost every Mauser--and I am not able to
document this, unfortunately, but I am sure that you have easy access
to rifle experts--that almost every German Mauser has stamped upon it
the caliber, as does almost every Italian carbine.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the difference between the two?
Mr. LANE. Do I know the difference?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. LANE. I know the difference between an Army M-l and an American
carbine--those are the only two weapons I fired--during the war. No, I
don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which I
used at one time.
I think it is most interesting to note that when Oswald was arrested
we were informed immediately that he had an alias--his last name was
Lee in that alias--as well as a great deal of material about his
political background and activities on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, and his defection to the Soviet Union, et cetera. But the
alias was raised immediately.
The following day, on the 23d, when it was announced by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine,
6.5 millimeters, under the assumed name, A. Hidell, then for the first
time the district attorney of Dallas indicated that the rifle in his
possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality
and size, and had become from a German 7.65 Mauser, an Italian 6.5
carbine. And, further he indicated then for the first time that they
knew of another alias maintained by Lee Oswald. In addition to the
name Lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where
he lived--the house where he had lived in Dallas, where he rented a
room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room
under the name Lee. Mr. Wade stated that on Oswald's person, in his
pocketbook, was an identification card made out to A. Hidell, and
I have seen pictures of this reproduced in either Time magazine or
Newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines--I believe it was one or
the other--with a picture of Oswald appearing on this card, plainly
indicating that Oswald had the alias A. Hidell, to Mr. Wade.
I think it is interesting that the name Lee as an alias was released
immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that
alias. But the name A. Hidell, was not released as an alias, although
that was present and obvious by mere search of Oswald's person when he
was arrested.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the time of the release of the information
about the alias, A. Hidell?
Mr. LANE. That was on November 23.
Mr. RANKIN. And how about Lee?
Mr. LANE. November 22. The first release of the name A. Hidell came
from the district attorney's office after the FBI had indicated that
Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine under that name.
If I were permitted to cross-examine Mr. Wade, which evidently you have
decided that I shall not be permitted to do, and Officer Weitzman, I
would seek to find out how about the most important single element in
probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the
murder weapon, in a case which I am sure is Mr. Wade's most important
case--how he could be so completely in error about this.
Mr. Wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for
some 13 or 14 years, and I believe was an agent of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation prior to that time.
I would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so
vital.
Now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an Italian
rifle, Italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any
number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and
strike the President in front of the throat, although he was past
that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the
shooting, to have come from a different place entirely.
But in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of
the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave
on that day. An Olympic rifle champion, Hubert Hammerer, said that he
doubts that it could be done.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us his address?
Mr. LANE. He is not in the United States. The story appeared in the New
York Times. I don't have the exact date.
Representative FORD. What nationality is he?
Mr. LANE. I don't know.
Representative FORD. Do you know when he was Olympic champion?
Mr. LANE. No, I don't know that. I do know it probably was some time
after the Italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely
old weapon, manufactured back in 1938, as I recall. There seems to be
an agreement that the period of time was between 5 and 6 seconds from
the first shot to the last shot.
There is a serious question in the minds, I think, of persons who have
fired that pistol--that rifle--first of all, as to its ability to be
fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in
reference to the ammunition which is available. Various persons have
tested various lots of ammunition. Someone from the National Rifle
Association told me that he tested more than 30 rounds, a little over
30 rounds of the Italian 6.5----
Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to these people, will you tell us the names
of any of them that you can? It might be of help to us.
Mr. LANE. I should remember this gentleman, because I just spoke with
him. That is another name I am going to have to supply for you.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
Mr. LANE. He is a member of the board of directors of the National
Rifle Association. He purchased for one of the television networks some
30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds, and told me that 20 of them did
not fire at all, and 6 of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a
phrase I don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did
not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. Therefore, a
very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value.
Mr. Ed Wallace talked about making a similar test in the New York World
Telegram and Sun, in a feature article, and I think he said that he
went with an expert, and they got 20 rounds of this ammunition, and of
those 17 did not fire--only 3 fired. It was very old ammunition.
Representative FORD. Who is Ed Wallace, and who is the individual that
Ed Wallace referred to? Do you have that information?
Mr. LANE. I believe Mr. Wallace indicated that he was present when the
test was made. But it was an article appearing in the New York World
Telegram and Sun within a week after the assassination--from the 23d to
the 30th of November. And I can secure and mail to you a copy of that
article, if you prefer.
While there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert
could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could
secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, I think there
is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could
one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged
Oswald did on November 22.
The Times reported on November 23, "As Marines go, Lee Harvey Oswald
was not highly regarded as a rifleman." And you have in your files,
of course, the scorecard indicating Oswald's marksmanship or lack of
marksmanship while in the Marine Corps.
In addition to that, you have the documents given to you by Marguerite
Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by
Oswald while in the Marine Corps, showing his score in fast and slow
shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an M-l, as
I recall, and an American carbine. Now, of course, it has been alleged
on occasion that Mr. Oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on
weekends, at rifle ranges.
Mrs. Paine, with whom Lee Oswald's wife lived for the 2 month period
preceding the assassination, and where Lee Oswald himself spent
weekends for that 2 months period preceding the assassination, told me
that Oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend,
since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire 2 month
period just preceding the assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the day of that conversation with Mrs.
Paine?
Mr. LANE. I have had about five conversations with her. The first one
would be, oh, I believe, New Year's Day. I think that is the first
time--this year--I believe that is the first time that she made the
statement to me. She said she could account for Oswald's whereabouts
during that 2 month period on weekends, from Friday late afternoon,
when he left work in Dallas and arrived there in Irving, until early
Monday morning.
She said the exception is during that time--she didn't watch him every
moment, of course--there might be exceptions when she went shopping for
half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her
two children, his children. But that unless he ran out quickly into the
back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away
while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be
impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends.
Since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the
entire period of time, of course--that was in Irving, Tex., and he was
in Dallas, Tex.--it would have been impossible for him to practice
during the week while he was in Dallas, with that particular rifle.
Of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate
with it. One must practice with the specific weapon which one is going
to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event.
Now, I spoke with Dial M. Ryder, who is a gunsmith in Irving, Tex.,
at the Irving Sport Shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic
sight on a rifle for a man named Oswald during October 1963.
Now, unfortunately, he does not recall--that is around the deer
season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles
fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the
Dallas-Irving area. And he does not recall, therefore, what this
gentleman named Oswald looks like.
But he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name
now appears in this record as Oswald, and that he drilled three holes
in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. He said he had only seen
three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount--a 303
British Enfield, a 303 American Springfield army surplus rifle, or an
Eddystone, which is also an American rifle. He said, therefore, he did
not attach a telescopic sight to the Italian carbine, because he would
have only drilled two holes.
His employer, I think his name is Greener, he told me, checked with all
the Oswalds they could find in the Irving area after this matter came
to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area--and they
called some people in Dallas also named Oswald--could not find anyone
named Oswald who brought the rifle in to him.
I talked to Milton Klein, who is the owner of Klein's sporting
goods store in Chicago--Klein's Sporting Goods is the name of the
establishment, in Chicago.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this?
Mr. LANE. I spoke with him within the last 2 or 3 days. And he told
me that--he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, Italian
carbine, to Dallas, not to Oswald, but to A. Hidell, and that he sent
that out with the holes already bored in the Italian carbine, and
equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the
rifle.
Aguto Marcelli, who is a correspondent for an Italian publication which
appears physically very much to be like Life magazine, called Leuropeo,
stated to me that he had spoken with Mr. Klein, and Mr. Klein told him
that the FBI--"The FBI warned me to keep my trap shut."
Mr. RANKIN. When was this?
Mr. LANE. He told me this about 2 weeks ago. When I spoke with Mr.
Klein, about 3 days ago, 2 or 3 days ago, he indicated that he did not
want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. And I asked him if
that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case,
and he said yes.
And I said, "Who told you that?"
He said, "The FBI agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case."
I pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case
with me, I would not force him to. There was no way that he would
be compelled to answer any of the questions that I asked him. But,
however, in our democratic society, the FBI cannot order anyone not to
discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if
he wanted to discuss the case with me--he could.
So he did. And he told me what I informed you--that the FBI told him
not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes
already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone
named A. Hidell.
He also said that "No ammunition was purchased from me by Hidell at
that time or since."
Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did he name any person with the FBI who told him not to
discuss the case?
Mr. LANE. No; he did not.
Senator COOPER. Can you identify--did he identify him in any way?
Mr. LANE. He did not identify him. Earlier, perhaps before you arrived,
Senator, I made reference to a statement made by Mrs. Hill, who was
told by the Secret Service--I think perhaps you were here--that only
three shots were fired. And I asked her specifically if she could
identify that Secret Service agent, and she told me that she could not,
there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many
agents of the FBI and Secret Service that she spoke to, that she did
not think she could. But possibly if she saw him, she might be able to
recognize him.
I didn't go any further into that question, however, with Mr. Klein. He
seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area--to discuss anything,
but particularly that area.
I read in the Dallas Times Herald, on November 25, 1963, the statement
made by Mr. Wade, when asked what they had tying Oswald to the
"crime of the century" and his response was, according to the Dallas
Times Herald, "If I had to single out any one thing, it would be the
fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop
the weapon on."
On the same day the World Telegram and Sun reported "Federal
authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the
murder weapon when it was flown to Washington for laboratory studies."
There were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was
discovered on the bolt of the rifle. If that is so, it would be
remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than Captain
Fritz of the Homicide Squad in Dallas, because according to the
affidavit signed by Officer Weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and I
am quoting now from the affidavit on file--at that time on file with
the district attorney's office, "The time the rifle was found was 1:22
p.m. Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round
from the Chamber. I then went back to the office after this."
Now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the--on most
Italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. One really has to
grab a hold of it and pull back. It would be unusual if a fingerprint
belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived.
The first statement made by Mr. Wade in reference to the taxi driver
who he alleged--he, Wade, alleged took Oswald generally from this
scene, indicated that the driver's name was Daryl Click.
Now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. That
statement was not made until after Chief Curry had announced to the
press in Dallas, on that day, November 24th that the case was closed,
there would be no further investigation--Oswald was the assassin, he
had acted alone, he was then dead. And as a result of the change in
policy, to reopen the case and have Mr. Wade assume a position in front
of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the Nation, on
that evening November 24, Mr. Wade then presented what he said was the
evidence "for you piece by piece." And part of the evidence which he
had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named Daryl Click drove
Oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to Oswald's home.
When I was in Dallas--I suppose this was on January 2d, my first trip
there in reference to this matter--I spoke with a Mr. Roseboro of the
Teamsters Union--they have organized the taxi drivers in Dallas--and
asked him if he knew--if he could give me any information about a Daryl
Click. He said he did not have the name in his files, but Texas being a
right-to-work law State, it is possible, he said, that Mr. Click was a
driver but not a member of that union. He referred me to the personnel
department of the City Transportation Co., which he told me was the one
company monopoly running all the taxis in Dallas.
I spoke with the City Transportation Co. personnel office, Mr. Pott, as
I recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was
no Daryl Click who drove a taxi in Dallas.
Some time after Mr. Wade stated that Daryl Click was the taxi driver,
he then stated that a person by the name of William Whaley was the taxi
driver who took Oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home.
It is therefore alleged by the prosecution that Oswald, after firing
upon the Presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front
of the Book Depository Building to the rear of the warehouse, almost
to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and
then took the stairs at the rear of the Book Depository Building and
walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and
then he walked to the Coca-Cola machine, which was at the front of the
building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and
he purchased a Coca-Cola, and was sipping it when a police officer
arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. Mr. Truly explained
to the officer that Oswald worked there. And eventually Oswald left the
building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus--walked two
blocks and entered Mr. Whaley's taxi, at exactly 12:30, according to
Mr. Whaley. The shots that killed the President were fired at 12:31.
Now, there is on file in the district attorney's office--I assume you
have the original or copies of it--a report of a paraffin test taken
of Oswald, of both his hands and his face. The test proved, according
to Mr. Curry, and the statement that he made on Saturday, November
23, to the press that Oswald had fired the murder weapon. However, a
reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different
conclusion.
The test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that
Oswald had not fired a rifle on November 22, 1963--although the test on
the hands showed positive--indicating, according to the person who did
the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired
a revolver. That was the statement on the test taken and conducted by
a Louis L. Anderson, on November 23, 1963, by the Dallas City County
Crime Investigation Laboratory.
Now, it has, of course, been alleged that after Oswald shot the
President and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket,
he then shot and killed Officer Tippit. The affidavit in the district
attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car,
walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window,
or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and
then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person
shot Officer Tippit to death.
The affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of
the assailant, the man who killed Tippit, by an eyewitness who said she
was just 50 feet away.
Her description of this person is found in two different portions of
the affidavit--he was young, white, male, and that is the entire
description present in the affidavit at that time.
I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham,
and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was
married--told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police
car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit. She gave to me
a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer
Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his
hair was somewhat bushy. I think it is fair to state that an accurate
description of Oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin
and receding hair.
Helen Markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on
that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen
anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police
station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit
in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed
Oswald out to her--she was just shown four people, and she picked
Oswald.
She said--when I asked her how she could identify him--she indicated
she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and
dark trousers. And this was the basis for her identification--although
Oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated.
Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with the
deponent?
Mr. LANE. Within the last 5 days.
Representative FORD. Some time in late February 1964?
Mr. LANE. Or perhaps even early March, yes, sir.
Now, I inquired--I told her that I was coming here today, and that I
was completing my investigation as Oswald's lawyer, and asked her if
she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would.
I asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me.
At first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because
I called her at her place of employment, the Eat Well Cafe in Dallas.
I tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always
busy. I believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a
common phone shared by others in the building where she resides.
I apologized for calling her at her place of employment. And she seemed
reluctant to talk to me. I asked if anyone had asked her not to talk
about this case with anyone. She said yes, she had been told by the
FBI, by Secret Service agents, and by Dallas police, all three groups,
not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large
she had not.
I told her that somewhere it occurred to me that I had seen an article
in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of Oswald as short,
stocky, and with bushy hair--I'm sorry, the assailant of Tippit--as
being short, stocky, with bushy hair. And she said she did talk to a
reporter, she thinks, for one of the Dallas newspapers, the Dallas
Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News--but that is the only time she
talked to anybody.
I would like to call to the Commission's attention the entire brief
narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's
office at this point, or at least on the 24th, because it seems to me
to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult
to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally.
If everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must
conclude that Oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the
beginning to the end.
He decided on Thursday, November 21, that he was going to assassinate
the President, and so he decided to go back to Irving, Tex., to secure
a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. He had on his person
some $13 when arrested, and almost $150 in cash in the top drawer
of his dresser--so we can assume that on Thursday, the 21st, he had
roughly that amount of money present.
One can purchase a rifle for less than $13 in many stores in Dallas.
There is no question about that. By using a small portion of that $150,
he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the Italian
carbine at home in Irving in many respects. And there are gun magazines
which have had editorials dwelling on this question, saying that if
Oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question
of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one
who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit,
worthless rifle, as this Italian carbine, manufactured in 1938, for
which there is such pure ammunition. There are a series, I believe, of
editorials in gun magazines proving that Oswald, I think, as a matter
of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint--that Oswald was in no way
associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he
could not have chosen such a weapon.
Representative FORD. Could you give us the citations of one of these
magazines?
Mr. LANE. Yes. One is called Gun Magazine. I do not recall the names.
But that is one of them. I am sure there was such an editorial in that
one. I will get the other one and mail those to you also.
But I think there would have to be a more compelling reason for Oswald
not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on
Thursday to kill the President. That was the only rifle in the whole
world probably that could be traced to him. One can purchase a rifle
in almost any community in this country, certainly in Dallas, without
any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or
having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating
who owns that particular rifle.
But here we have Oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which
rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him,
which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the
assassination is complete.
And so he goes home to Irving, Tex., and he gets this rifle, and
he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the Book
Depository Building.
Now, the rifle can be broken down, I believe, from examining other
Italian carbines. But it would be not much shorter if it was broken
down--perhaps 6 or 7 inches shorter. Evidently, though, he did not do
that.
So he took this rifle into the book depository building, which I
suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. This was going to be
the greatest series of precautions in the history of the United States
to protect an American President. As we know now, and suspected then,
with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before,
with reference to public officials in Dallas--and here we have a
man who has defected to the Soviet Union, who has married a Russian
national, active on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, we
see a discharge less than honorable from the U.S. Marine Corps, who
was working in the building exactly on the Presidential route. Not
only is it on the Presidential route, but it is the building where the
automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp
turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building.
And despite all of these precautions--and I have been informed that
there were serious precautions taken in Dallas on that day by the
Dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly,
who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of
school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in
Dallas.
Nevertheless, Oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into
the Book Depository Building, directly on the Presidential route,
carrying with him in his hand a full rifle.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the information on which you base this,
about anyone who merely spoke about school integration?
Mr. LANE. Yes. A reporter for the Dallas Morning News told me that,
told me he was absolutely certain that was so. But before revealing
his name, I am going to have to call him and indicate I am going to do
that. I will be happy to do that. I am glad you are interested in that
matter, because I think it is a most important one.
I suggest that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that Oswald
worked at the Texas Book Depository Building, which was on the
Presidential route. An FBI agent by the name of Hosty visited the home
of the Paines in Irving, Tex., sometime during September and October.
He visited that home on more than one occasion. Each of the at least
two times that he was there, possibly three but I am not certain--but
I was told he was there two times--I know I was told by Mrs. Paine
in the presence of her husband, Michael Paine, that Agent Hosty was
there at least on two occasions--each time he was there he asked
where Oswald was. Mrs. Paine explained to Agent Hosty, she told me,
that Oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week
Agent Hosty could find him at his room in Dallas, where he stayed
during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the Texas Book
Depository Building, where he was an employee. Nevertheless--and that
Oswald would not be found in Irving, Tex. at the Paine's home during
the week. Nevertheless, Agent Hosty returned again at least one more
time to the Paine home in Irving, during the week, during the day,
I believe--certainly during the week--and again asked about Oswald,
and again Mrs. Paine told him that he worked at the Book Depository
Building, he would not be there, she said, "As we told you last time
he won't be here during the week. During the daytime during the week
you can find him at his job at the Book Depository Building, and during
the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in
Dallas."
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming
house was?
Mr. LANE. I do not believe I asked her that question, and I don't
believe she mentioned that.
Well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according
to the facts presented by the prosecution, Oswald was on the sixth
floor, fired at the Presidential limousine, not as the automobile
approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to
the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could
have shot occupants of the automobile from that window--but it is
alleged that Oswald never shot--it is now alleged that Oswald never
shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired
when the automobile was some 75 yards beyond the building, when the
first shot was fired.
Then Oswald walked the entire floor--or ran--the entire floor of the
warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between
some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on
the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to
the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he
purchased a Coca-Cola--made no effort to leave the building at that
time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by
police before leaving.
He stayed at the top of the stairs near the Coke machine long enough so
that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and
Roy Truly, the director, then intervened indicating that Mr. Oswald was
employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to
do other things in the building, including later on, I believe, to find
the rifle, if it was the same officer.
Mr. Truly stated that Oswald was quite calm when the officer approached
him on the stairs. He said although he did seem a little concerned
about that pistol being stuck at him--but otherwise he seemed quite
calm at that time.
Well----
Representative FORD. Where was this statement made, or testimony given?
Mr. LANE. By Truly?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. LANE. This was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores
of newspapers. The New York Times carried that, as did many other
publications--direct quotations from Truly who was interviewed.
Then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or
closing statement to the television cameras, after Oswald was killed
was that--the next we hear of Oswald he was on a bus. Well, if Oswald
boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then Oswald walked a
distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly
back to the Book Depository Building, which one would think he was
trying to flee after assassinating the President.
I would refer you to his story by Hugh Ainsworth in the Dallas Morning
News published during the first week after the assassination. Hugh
Ainsworth and Larry Grove published on November 28 in the Dallas
Morning News--this is headed "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene"--in
which there are statements from the busdriver that--named C. J.
McWatters, in which Mr. McWatters indicates that Oswald entered the bus
at Elm and Griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to
go seven blocks further west and turn at Houston Street, exactly the
scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the Texas Book
Depository. So Oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to
secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left.
Now, although I have talked to Mr. Ainsworth, and he tells me that the
story is absolutely correct, and he questioned Mr. McWatters quite
thoroughly, and he will so testify, I believe, if he is asked--Mr.
Ainsworth will--and the affidavit which Mr. McWatters signed, or which
the busdriver signed, he does not state that Oswald walked seven blocks
and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. Indeed,
he states that he picked him up about Elm and Houston Street, at the
Book Depository Building. But the busdriver indicates that th
Showing first 200,000 characters. Full text: gutenberg.org/ebooks/44002